Fall in Love with Dentistry Again – How to Feel Fulfilled as a Dentist – IC060

Jaz’s Introduction:
Hello Protruserati. I’m Jaz Gulati and welcome back to your favorite Dental podcast. This is the interference cast, like the nonclinical arm, but a very important arm of the podcast.

One of the things that Andrea mentioned, is that when she was studying in dental school, that’s what it was all about. It was just about studying and becoming a dentist and passing your exams, and I resonated with that so much because our date was 6th of June. I knew that on 6th of June 2013, we were gonna get our results. 

And I could not imagine life beyond the 6th of June. Like it was all about am I gonna become a dentist? This is what I’ve been building up my last sort of eight to nine years to do. Like I wanted to be a dentist since I was 14, but I couldn’t even think about the future and what it will actually be like to be a real dentist in the real world.

Now, fast forward so many years, I have a lot of real world insight and I’d love to share it with you today along with Andrea. I love people like Andrea because they are all about helping us feel fulfilled in dentistry. 

There are plenty of people out there who perhaps dentistry didn’t go the way they planned. They leave and now they want to coach you on your exit plan, which I understand, but what I don’t believe in is making permanent decisions based on temporary feelings and actually attempting to figure out exactly how to make dentistry work for you.

Now, some things I didn’t discuss in the conversation with Andrea, because she was on a roll and I want to give her the space and time to talk about all the wonderful things, including the latter part, the end of the podcast, whereby she actually gives real techniques, is about five techniques she shares to help you feel more fulfilled from dentistry.

But one thing I wanna just talk about while I have this opportunity in the intro is the following. Have you actually put pen to paper to write down what your ideal day actually looks like? Like you are actually allowed to have an ideal day. Have you thought about it? 

I didn’t do this until a few years ago, and it made a big difference to my clarity of thinking and where I want to take my career. And the other one, of course is what does your ideal week look like? Once you’ve decided what your ideal day and ideal week looks like, then make that your goal, that’s your aim. 

Why wouldn’t you make some decisions right now to make your ideal day and your ideal week become a reality. For example because I think examples really help. I’m someone who if I don’t exercise at least three or four times a week, I don’t feel like I’m living to my truest value. I become grumpy I don’t feel like I’m enjoying my life as much as I could be. And so I know in my ideal week I need that. 

Now, I’ve had a few years in my career where that wasn’t happening, especially when we are building OBAB that was such a huge project. I had to wrongly sacrifice some health for that. But now I’m back on track.

And so slotting that into the ideal week for me is really important, and you make it work and you make some key life decisions. And something that you do with your significant other, you decide that you design your perfect life how do you actually want it to look like, where you’re gonna live? What gym membership will I will have to make sure this all happens.

And so it’s about living a life of purpose, allowing you to live to your truest values. And that was just one example of me making sure that I designed my ideal day and my ideal life to make sure I get to go to the gym 3-4 times a week.

Another thing that was important to me is like I’m someone, I’m not good at multitasking. I think most, most of us aren’t, and we shouldn’t be multitasking. It’s better to focus on one thing, and I’m particularly bad and like sometimes I get distracted and I feel like really overwhelmed easily. And so when I’m in clinical mode, I’m in clinical mode. And because I love my clinical dentistry, it’s not a big deal for me to do a 12 hour shift.

I know it’s not for everyone, but I’m more than happy to do an 8:00 AM till 8:00 PM if it means I can work less days. So for me that made perfect sense that I have a really long Monday and now I don’t have to work a Thursday anymore, for example. And this has only just come to fruition. It’s something that we agreed on about a year ago, and then we had to wait for my Thursday patients to diminish, if you’d like.

And now I really consolidated my clinical days. This allows me to be in the zone on Monday. And whilst I don’t get to see my kids much on a Monday, I get to make up for it on the other days. because now three days a week, I get to do either school drop off or a pickup, or both. And the main point of sharing this detail with you, my friend, is that everything I’m trying to do is with great intention, it’s on purpose and it’s by design.

And it doesn’t happen overnight. It actually took a discovery process first, and then you put your action plan, and you relentlessly chase that. And that ideal week may look different for everyone. But if you don’t decide what your ideal day or ideal week looks like, then you’ll never get it. If you don’t know where you’re going, how do you know when you’ll get there?

Alright, that’s quite enough of my rambling. I’ll catch you in the outro. Enjoy, enjoy, enjoy this podcast with Andrea.

Main Episode:
So Doctor Andrea Ogden, it is absolutely a pleasure to have you on Protrusive Dental Podcast. How are you? 

[Andrea]
I’m very well, and I’m very excited to be here. So thank you so much for the invitation to come and talk to you today. 

[Jaz]
For those of you listening on Spotify, Apple it’s a sunny, beautiful day today in the UK for once. And Andrea’s looking bright and vibrant and that would really, I think be a great descriptor of some of the content I’m seeing from you, Andrea.

And the top word I’d probably say is relatable. I reached out to you because I’m loving what you’re putting out to the universe. So much of the podcast over the last six years. Our tagline is Fall in Love with dentistry again, and I’m very much, when I do some speaking, I say, find your niche, find a way, and fight for it to make dentistry work for you.

And everything you’re putting out there is just, I’m loving it and I think we can learn so much from you. And often with these kind of episodes, Andrea, I get so many messages saying, you know what? I really need that and that’s what I want everyone to achieve. And so to start with, Andrea, I wanna learn about your journey because you do reference your journey a lot in your posts and stuff, and I think you’ve got a really interesting one. So can we start with that, Andrea, and tell us about yourself? 

[Andrea]
Yeah, sure. I think if I’m gonna talk about my journey, it’s hard to kind of think, well actually, where do we start?

And the reality is that I probably need to go back all those years to when I filled out that UCAS form, when I was doing my A Levels. And, I feel like there’s four places for the picked four random dental schools that didn’t really put a lot of thought into it. Just was like, no, I really wanna be a dentist. It’s the only way I’m gonna be happy and I’m gonna find fulfillment and achieve my potential.

I sent the UCAS form off and I didn’t even get a single interview. So I was like, oh so it wasn’t like I got rejected, like not offered a place, like they didn’t even wanna interview me.

So, I think when I look back at the fact that that happened and I went and did a degree in human biology and then applied again, I was successfully offered a place. But I suspect, in fact, I know that that failure right at the beginning, definitely played a part in many years while I was at dental school.

There was definitely this fear of failure that I might not make it, that I wasn’t gonna graduate, that I might get thrown out. And looking back that was crazy because the pass away exams, but that fear was definitely there. And so for many years it was all about becoming a dentist, rather than giving much thought into what it would be like once I became a dentist.

And so, that plus the fact that I don’t come from a medical or a dental background. I don’t have anybody to mentor me or explain the realities. I did a bit of work experience and obviously, you learn stuff where you’re at dental school, but I had no idea. And I think looking back at that time at dental school, I don’t have any memory of getting any careers advice or, even being given any kind of skills about the opportunities that are available to you once you have a dental degree.

So when I graduated I think I was just kind of like, “Oh, okay, so now I’m gonna do what everybody else does. Which I’m gonna go and do well, it was vocational training when I did it, and then I got myself a nice little associate job and I really thought that if–

[Jaz]
MFDS and all that kind of stuff 

[Andrea]
Yeah. Did all of that, it was tick box exercise. 

[Jaz]
Yes, yes, yes. 

[Andrea]
Everybody does this, I must do this. And I really thought that what if you are a successful dentist, then you earned a practice. So I needed to acquire the skills that you need to manage a business, which you weren’t taught at dental school.

So I was like, okay, so this is the plan, this is what I’m gonna do. And there were definitely a couple of key pivotal moments. The first one I remember when I was an associate probably, few years in as an associate. And I just had that moment where I was like, is this it?

Is this what I’m gonna be doing for the rest of my working life? Being in this one room, working with a nurse and the patient and then I just had this sense. I had so many more skills and potential, that I hadn’t tapped into. And that clinical work in general practice alone was not gonna enable me to do that and to grow in those things.

The second thing was when I had an offer accepted to buy a practice, and at the time I had a seven month old baby, I was driving, but this moment so clearly I was driving down the road, my seven month old baby in the back of the car. It just hit me how much additional responsibility I was about to take on.

My husband’s not a dentist, my family aren’t dentists. There was that moment where I was like, hang on a minute just stop and think about this. This might not be the right choice for you, why are you doing this? Are we just ticking boxes because you think this is what you should do? Rather than what you actually want to do, or need to just take some time to think about it.

And that really did set those two moments. Definitely set up a chain of reactions, chain of events that made me evaluate not just what I want out of my career. I want out of my life. 

[Jaz]
Andrea, did you go ahead and buy that practice in the end? Or did you make a decision that actually this isn’t for you after all?

[Andrea]
No, I made a decision that this wasn’t for me. I think the sale was likely to fall through anyway. We were literally at the very early stages. And then, something came up with bank valuation, all that kind of stuff that I was like, “Actually, no, this is my chance to get out, this is not the right decision for me at this time. Let’s just stop and let’s just think about this and take some time and work out where it is that we’re gonna go from here. 

[Jaz]
Have you read the book, the E-Myth or the dental version of the E-Myth? 

[Andrea]
No, I haven’t. But I’m gonna make a note of that so I can definitely reach it today.

[Jaz] There’s so many things that you’re saying there because it argues like, for example, that yes, let’s apply to dentistry, but like one step back, and not even related in dentistry, but it gives an example in the generic book The E-Myth Revisited. It gives an example of someone who just loves baking. They’re just amazing at baking. 

And then everyone says, “Look, you need to sell your goods. Your baking is the best, you need to sell.” And then eventually she opens a shop, and then she’s there like 5:00 AM, baking and stuff. And then she’s there serving customers. And then it grew and it grew. And then eventually she’s not baking anymore, she’s just doing the account. She’s managing people, she’s doing this.

And the thing that she was in love with, right? Which is the baking. She was no longer doing anymore. And so that is like the the technician. Then we also have the manager and the entrepreneur. So these are three different roles, and as dentists, we get shoehorned into playing all these three roles. 

As a business owner, you’re like the entrepreneur, you also become a manager, and then you also a technician. You still have to do the implant, still have to do the orthodontics, you still have to do what is very challenging work, and this can be a real source of burnout and stress because you’re trying to wear so many hats and everything is like brand new and like you, 

Andrea, like I think very few people are fortunate enough to have clear mentorship, whether it’s family or close colleagues that they can rely on. A lot of people are just making up as they go along. And that’s scary. So what did you do thereafter when you decided that okay, a really good judgmental moment for you, really good insight that you had, potentially a good insight where you decided that this isn’t for me. How did you pivot from there? 

[Andrea]
I think the first thing I looked at was: What was it that I really enjoyed in dentistry? And I got into teaching very early on because my first associate job was in a foundation training practice.

So the FD was often coming in. I wasn’t their trainer, but they’d often come in for a chat. I’d help them get bits of teeth out, find canals, and I got a kick out of it. I realized quite early on that to be part of somebody’s journey is a huge privilege and even if you’re just a teeny, tiny bit.

So I think that was always kind of there and I thought, “Actually no, I need to do more of this. I’ve done my postgraduate certificate in dental education. I applied to be an educational supervisor in my own right. And then naturally it was kind of, so that was kind of already going on in the background and it was that moment actually after being in the car with my eldest.

I was like, “Okay, we need to look at how we can take this further.” And around the same time, there was a job that came up to be a training program director in the East of England. And I didn’t think I was gonna get it, but I was like, I have to apply for this. Like, we have to see where this can go.

And you know that was at that point. That was definitely, the biggest pivot because that changed my working week. I went from being five days as a clinical associate to actually doing three days and then two days was involved with foundation training and that kind of initial variety, that increased variety in the week and actually having to learn all the different skills of working, within a much wider team and managing budgets and dealing with the trainers and the FDs, all these skills that I didn’t realize actually, I didn’t know I had to acquire those and learn quite quickly.

And I was like, ” I really enjoy learning stuff. I think most dentists do. That’s one you sign up to a lifelong commitment of continued learning. Okay this is something else I hadn’t realized about myself. How can we do that?”

So it was definitely, as you said, most dentists, they don’t know and it is this kind of trial and error and just– 

[Jaz]
I think that’s okay, Andrea because I think it’s important to have you need to trial. I always say you need to kiss a lot of frogs before you find your prince charming. And in the context of finding out what your niche is or finding out if you should specialize or not, or finding out, what kind of career you want to have, and sometimes you need to figure out that “Actually I’ve done enough endo to realize I don’t enjoy this, and actually I really enjoy digital dentistry.”

Like for whatever it could be. They get a kick out of doing the lab side. They get a kick out of Cerec. In contrast to you that you felt as though that this is not for you to do it for the next few decades with the nurse, whereas other people get a kick out of six days a week working in that room.

[Andrea]
Yeah. 

[Jaz]
And they just love their clinical tiny details of dentistry, whereas other people feel like they just want a variety in the week like you. So is that what your week looks like now, Andrea? 

[Andrea]
Yeah, my week is incredibly varied now. I think because after I finished working as a training program director, I joined the BBA as a member of their staff.

Ultimately, that’s really the amount of things, different types of things that I do during the week, whether that is giving talks to foundation dentists or students, whether that is project work. I still work clinically. As a dentist, for me variety was always a key thing that I wanted to tap into.

Like you say, for many people, if they absolutely love working, doing that clinical work, then that’s what’s right for you. The point is we’re all different. And it’s about understanding who you are and what makes you tick and why it is that you wanted to do dentistry in the first place, and how can you enable that?

And you’re gonna learn stuff about yourself throughout, along the way. Like, I didn’t realize that I like teaching when I started doing dental school. That was the last thing I thought about. So you discover these things that you are like, “Okay, well that’s good. How can I, how can I do that a little bit more?”

But I think probably one thing I probably need to mention is. I often hear people say, “oh, you need to find out what your strengths are.” Like let’s say you’re good at root canal site, you should do more root canals, I suppose, like your, the baking analogy that you were talking about. 

But there’s a definite difference between doing something, doing more of something, or because you are good at it and doing more of something because you enjoy it. Because you can be good at something but not necessarily enjoy it, and therefore that’s not necessarily a strength. So I think the two have to come hand in hand. 

[Jaz]
I think usually they do, but there are instances where they don’t. But I think sometimes you are, you become good at something because you enjoy it, and then you follow that path, and then that’s the ultimate.

You are in a very privileged position, Andrea, in the sense that you’ve touched the lives of main trainees. You’ve had to influence to mold them, to support them, and that’s a really special thing to do. What have you learned from that experience in terms of what are the struggles?

What’s the plight of the young dentist nowadays? In what ways some of them potentially feeling not so fulfilled? What’s keeping the mup at night? What would you say to our colleagues listening and watching right now that might be relatable? Kind of like the content that you’re posting out. What are the main challenges we face as dentists? 

[Andrea]
Well, I think, there’s two main challenges that people have after they’ve graduated and particularly after they’ve finished foundation training. And the first one, I think it’s a very similar experience to what I had, is that if you don’t have the information about career options, you end up just doing what you think you should.

I mean, when we look at people that go into dental school. We’re high academic achievers. The vast majority of people have kind of gone through A levels, then they’ve gone into dental school and it’s all mapped out. So if you do very well at your A Levels and you apply to dentistry, you’re successful, then you progress to year one, and then you pass your exams and you progress to year two and so on and so on.

And then you do foundational vocational training and then all of a sudden. Unless you do DCT and specialty training, like there’s— 

[Jaz]
Which is why so many do it, Andrea, I, I think so many are doing it because they feel like, “Well, this just seems like a path and therefore I should do it not with any sort of real conviction or enjoyment of it, or actually a desire to do it other than.

I think this is the next step because it kind of is a path that’s already been made, but it’s not necessarily your path. And then some people do it because they’re afraid to go into practice and they’re afraid of the, the, the big bad worlds out there. 

[Andrea]
Yeah. I think that can definitely, definitely be a factor, especially because you know you’re gonna get more support. Whereas you don’t necessarily know you are gonna get that continued support in practice. I think that is a huge jump to go from that a structure to that autonomy that you have. I mean, it’s hugely exciting the fact that you are in control. You make the decisions as to where you want to take your career, which postgraduate training you are gonna focus on.

But because it is such a huge leap, I think it can feel tremendously overwhelming. And again, as you say that can be a factor as to why people choose the more prescriptive route, at least initially, just to, to help them with that. 

[Jaz]
I mean, I can definitely relate to this, Andrea, because when I qualified, I did the DC- the DF1, then DCT, and then DCT2 because at the time I thought I wanted to go down the specialist route, and so I was keeping my options open.

I was keeping my hand in practice at the same time at the Saturday job, so I wouldn’t descale, and then thankfully, that gave me enough knowledge and experience to know that, “Okay, I actually don’t want the hospital pathway for various reasons.” I joked in a lecture the other week that if you had to just convert hostile dentistry into a Disney character. 

Then, the sloth from Zootopia, right? It would be that. So for me, it was just like, maybe it’s the way my mind works, I’m like this is all over the place. I need to be quick. And so for me it was like, “Okay, private practice or, OR practice certainly is the way forward for me and I’m glad I look back now.

I’m glad I had enough insight at the time and I knew that, okay, this really isn’t for me. I could do it, I’d probably be good at it, but it’s gonna be soul destroying for me to go down that path. Right. And so I felt really confused. I had no idea what to do. Should I join the rat race? Should I do an MSC? 

I was considering at the time, I just made a bold decision. Me and my wife moved to Singapore. We worked in private practice there for 18 months and we came back because my wife got homesick, but then I never looked back because it gave me that foot into practice. And I love what I do clinically now, but that was part of my journey of confusion and figuring things out and doing something bold and everyone’s journey is gonna look a little bit different.

[Andrea]
Absolutely. But I think you touched on the key point: you kept your options open, right at the beginning. So you could gain a maximum amount of information from all of the people that you’ve met, so you could make an informed decision. 

And I think that’s the issue that sometimes if you don’t have the options you don’t know what’s out there, then how can you just like when we tell our patients about treatment options, how can you make an informed decision about your career and your life? It’s very interesting.

But I think that’s ultimately been one of my big passions through the work, through the BDA is to develop their career hub. Because it used to just really frustrate me that there wasn’t anywhere that you could put all that information in one place about these are all the jobs that you could do with a dental degree. This is what you need, this is where they’re advertised. You know, these are the kind of routes that you can go down if you want to do X, Y, or Z.

[Jaz]
I was just making notes there, Andrea, because it just reminded me that the whole thing as, as a parent, they say the days along with the years are short. And the other thing the reason I mention that is because in dentistry sometimes you have a really tough day and we think like really small in terms of the timescale but if you actually remember where you’re gonna be now compared to 10 years time, there’ll be a huge difference. 

Think five years, think 10 years rather than think just next year. And you’d be amazed because if you, if you think that, if I don’t make this really important decision now, or if I mess up one year, then this could, the end of my career is gonna go down the really bad trajectory.

That’s not ideal way to think because that’s not true. You can have a couple of bad years or a bad year or a bad few months, but then whatever that means for someone, I think people will be able to relate to what that means for them. But it’s not career defining because our careers got wonderfully long in a good way, and we get to mold and reevaluate it and reshape it at many checkpoints. Is that something that you think as well? Is that fair to say? 

[Andrea]
Yeah, I totally agree with that. I think the other thing I’d probably add to that is the fact that you don’t need to achieve these things tomorrow. Like it is, your career is long. And I think going back to your question about the challenges that new graduates are facing you know, I didn’t graduate in an era of Instagram and social media, and I think there’s something called social proof bias, which is in the absence of an answer. 

You do what everybody else does. And I think when we are looking at social media in particular, there are some things that photograph a lot better on social media than others. So obviously, you know, cosmetic, whether that’s composite buildups or veneers or smile makeovers, photograph beautifully. 

Whereas if you have a picture of a perfectly executed molar endo, it might not gain the same traction. So see the algorithm is, is gonna show you certain things. You’ve also gotta remember about the context of the post.

Is that there to educate you or is that there to market to potential patients. And so it makes me think of this famous equation by a guy called Tim Urban that happiness equals reality minus expectation. So if you are at dental school and you are seeing a lot of these cosmetic cases, because that is what is coming through on social media and you think, okay, well that’s what I need to do. 

So my expectations are that I’m gonna graduate and I’m gonna be able to do this. But obviously that takes time. That takes postgraduate training, it takes an all sort amount of resource. So when you graduate and you are not there, or you think, “Gosh, I’m so far away from that, then your reality is way lower than your expectations.

So you are in negative happiness. And I think that’s a challenge that certainly I didn’t have. But I think I’m seeing that in a lot of new graduates. 

[Jaz]
Totally agree. And then the next question I had, which follows on so nicely from this is about stress burnout. And I’m gonna say it’s important to address these sensitive matters, but suicide in dentistry, we’ve lost a lot of colleagues over the last few years and we have been for decades.

And so. Is there a net benefit of social media in dentistry? I don’t know. I think there’s so much good I see in social media, but comparison is a thief of joy, right? And so we are comparing, especially now someone qualifying and they’re seeing the work that’s been done by someone 10, 15 years, but they forget the journey.

They just see their outcome and they think, I need to be able to do this. And everyone’s like in as fast paced. And that’s maybe keeping them up at nighttime. So social media could be a source of stress and resentment if someone falls in the trap of comparing themselves, right, and comparing what, where they are compared to where their peers are, for example, which is a, a dangerous thing to do.

Why else do you think we are in a situation where many of us in some of the BDA polls, you know, are quite striking the percentages are feeling disgruntled or upset. 

[Andrea]
I think that’s actually on the surface of it. You turn around and you go, Oh, it’s because of a high patient, increased patient expectations, it’s because of increased financial pressures. It’s because of increased fear of litigation. But I think actually, if we’re gonna examine this question because we want to improve our wellbeing and reduce the amount of stress that we’re under then we need to actually understand it a lot better and break it down.

So you mentioned the BDAs poll. So every year the BDA is part of its evidence that it presents to the doctors and dentists review body surveys, its members. And over the last eight years, the data has shown that the morale has reduced. From about initially 2015, about 40% of dentists said that they rated their morale as either high or very high. And in 2023 that had kind of gone down to about 20%. 

[Jaz]
Wow.

[Andrea]
It harped. And what I find really interesting is that back in 2015 about 50% of dentists surveyed would say that they would recommend dentistry as a career. And fast forward to 2023, that’s now reduced to about 35, 36%. So when you look at those surveys and you say, “Okay, well, what causes you the most stress?”

Interestingly, for practice owners, like 90% of them said it is increased practice cost. And for associates it’s fear of litigation. And then the list kind of goes down. I think it’s, you know, and number two is staff. Like how easy it is to recruit staff. How, if you are an associate, what’s the staff turnover if you don’t have the same nurse all the time. And then it becomes about financial concerns. And then I think number four is hitting NHS targets.

And so, we can look at those and go, “Oh yeah, okay, so that’s why, why dentist stress?” But I think it’s important to remember that they are external fractures. And so with external factors, you are limited as to how much you can control them.

Then we’ve gotta look at the nature of the job, which if you are in general practice, it can be isolating. You could be in a big practice, but you could end up working in a bit of a silo if you’re, if you’re not careful and you don’t, you know, if there isn’t that kind of culture that, everybody helps each other out and you all work together. Plus like the huge amount of mental load that comes with the job. I think the fact that as a dentist as you said, you’re doing all of these things. It’s not just the one job as a self-employed individual, you are the accounts, you are doing the actual clinical work. You are, you know, and all you are making– 

[Jaz]
Communications with labs and patients and letters. 

[Andrea]
Absolutely. 

[Jaz]
And planning itself, the whole just, getting a decent treatment plan. When you are conflicting in your mind that what is the best thing to do, that takes up so much choice, fatigue and decision making skills in your head.

[Andrea]
It does. I mean, the list just goes on and on, doesn’t it? And I think, the problem is when you’re making decisions all the time is that your brain doesn’t get chance to shut off. And then when you leave work, you are still replaying some of those events and decisions throughout the day.

So you can leave work, but mentally you are still there. And so when you don’t get that level of respite, and obviously you get home and you’ve got, you know, other financial constraints and pressures, whether that is a mortgage to pay or the kids to pick up or who, we’ve all, got whatever—

[Jaz]
Life, just everything else in life.

[Andrea]
Exactly, so it’s really, really fast paced and I think because we don’t get that time to, if we’re not careful, to just pause and just, reflect and think, “Okay, you know, I just need to take some time just to slow down and, I mean, I can’t meditate, but if you can, that’s great.”

But whatever works for you, but you just need a time just to kind of slow down. And I think also, the kind of people that I’m naturally attracted to dentistry tend to be high achievers, people who we wanna do a great job. I mean, whether we’re perfectionists or not, but we wanna do a great job and we wanna help people.

And so when things go wrong, as inevitably, sometimes they do, they don’t work out as as well as you’d like them to do. You know, if you are naturally, I don’t wanna say a people pleaser, but you wanna help somebody, then you can take that failure very personally. So I think that contributes to that.

And then we’ve got the other internal factors which are really specific to you. That is when you’ve got a clash of basically internal stresses usually come from a clash of values. So that means that your action or your environment is conflicting with what’s really important to you, and that makes this kind of internal cognitive dissonance, which you might not spot.

You might not even realize that it’s there. But over time massively contributes to burnout. And so I think, your values are a compass. As to where you are gonna go in life. And I think sometimes I meet people that are like, “oh no, dentistry is just not for me.”

And you are like, well actually, is it? And when you really delve down into it and you look at the kind of things that are causing them stress and draining their energy, you are like, well no, actually it’s got nothing to do with dentistry. It’s just a mismatch between your environment and your actions. So if we can change that, then actually that will make the world of difference for you.

[Jaz]
I think I’ve never had an episode where my neck is hurting so much. because I’m nodding so much. It honestly is like the cognitive dissonance, I talked about this a couple of years ago, right? And I’m so glad you mentioned it again because like, I don’t wanna talk about specific scenarios because of the international audience, but let’s say an example I’ve used in the past is you go on a course, you learn how to find MB2, okay.

And you learn how to find it. And now, when you are working and you’re like, you don’t have much time to do this endo, and everything’s rushed. And you know how to find the MB2, but now you don’t have the time or the tools to find it. That’s a source of stress. That’s a cognitive dissonance in itself.

[Andrea]
Absolutely. 

[Jaz]
Or you know that you should be doing things a certain type of way, but because of the environment you’re in, you are having to take shortcuts or just something that may have worked in the past few, but now because you know better or different or you want to be a certain way, but you’re not able to be your true self that eats you up inside.

Especially like you said, for us who want to do a good job, and many of us do love our clinical dentist and we work in microns and we wanna be proud of what we do, but we’re not able to do it. 

[Andrea]
Yeah, I think that you’ve hit the nail on the head. I think you know that there’s lots of examples that I can can give of that and it could be something as simple as you really value family time, but you are having to work really long hours, you’re having to stay behind because you know, you don’t have enough time to do your notes and your referral letters during the day. And so actually that’s a massive conflict of your value. Like actually it’s got–

[Jaz]
I’m so glad you mentioned that non-clinical one. I’m very pleased. And the other one would be like, you value your health and fitness, but because your working so much then you neglect the gym. You have the gym membership. You only go once a month, but you are at your best. You have the most energy when you’re going three or four times a week, but you’ve sacrificed that for work or for something else.

[Andrea]
Yeah. And I think another example that something I’ve certainly experienced, and it took me a while to work it out, was that for me, actually autonomy is, is really important to me. And so, you know, if I’m working in an environment where I lose control of my list and that, you know, the reception are putting in patients here, there, and everywhere for one dentist that they might love that. 

They might love the challenge, whereas I want the day to be separated into this is when I see emergency patients, or this is when we do this kind of treatment. And if I lose that sense of autonomy, then that causes me a huge amount of stress.

So it’s about understanding what specifically triggers you. And you only really understand that if you’ve actually put in the work, which can be quite uncomfortable work, to be honest as to what is important to you and why. 

[Jaz]
Hard now is an easier tomorrow, as I say. So with with that, let’s talk about the final phase, which I’m the most excited for, right, is let’s talk about some practical steps every dentist can take to fall in love with dentistry again, and ensures that it fuels them and it doesn’t feel like it’s a chore or a burnout, and it helps us to reconnect with why we got into the profession.

In fact, actually that reminds me of, there’s a book called Can’t Hurt Me. David Goggins, and then one of the techniques he uses is you reach into the cookie jar. So he’s an ultrathon runner, right? So let’s say he’s done like 80 miles and he is running and he is getting a little bit tired, and he is losing his energy, he’s losing his focus. He reaches into the cookie jar where he remembers, he searches inside, he remembers a time where he was successful or he conquered something and he tries to tap into that energy. 

And something I haven’t spoken much about before, but is something I think is relevant to hear is many of us okay, the vast majority I think at some stage when you’re doing the UCAS form, for example, Andrea, at one stage you really, really, really wanted this, you really wanted to be a dentist. 

Like if you tap back to that energy when you’re 18, 19, 25, wherever how much old you are, when in your individual journey at some stage you were like, you sleepless nights waiting for the results to come out, to find out if you’d become a dentist and that’s what you really wanted at one stage.

And to remember that and to tap into that energy. And that’s our version of a cookie jar to help you, to ignite you to do the hard work that you need to do, like you said, Andrea, to help make sure that you carve a professional life you that serves you. 

[Andrea]
Yeah, . Tapping into to that original why is fundamental, but I think also it’s important to say that, once you’ve tried different stuff, that why actually might change a bit. And that’s–

[Jaz]
That’s okay.

[Andrea]
And okay. 

[Jaz]
Great. because I’ve seen so much practical stuff shared by you on Instagram, can you share your top tips that you give to your trainees or you educate on to make sure that someone listening today can really go away and I think that’s a great , I can apply these few things to make a big instant difference to my fulfillment. 

[Andrea]
Well, I think the first thing to say, just because we’ve touched on stress and, tragically increased suicide rates. I think if you are listening to this conversation and you are really struggling, the first thing you need to do is you, you must seek support and there’s lots of support out there, and that’s Samaritans BDA has, it’s a health assured counseling service.

Your indemnity provider may have counseling support as well. So if you are really struggling, then there’s absolutely no shame. It’s, as we’ve talked about, it’s kind of an insane job when you think about it. And so we are all gonna go through periods of time where we are not doing too great. And what’s important is that, you access professional support when you need it.

When we kind of, if we are just looking at how can we make life more fun. How can we, improve our life in practice? I think, we’ve kind of touched on this already. The number one thing you’ve gotta do is get clear on what is it that you liked industry, what is it that actually does excite you?

And then look at how you can do. More of it, but to even kind of have these thoughts that we’ve been having. When we were talking about how rapid everything is and how our brains just are going a million miles all the time. I think the number one thing that I would advocate is that you just find a way of stopping.

So I can’t remember who it was that I heard say this, but basically if you are looking about even making any kind of change. It could be a small change, it could be a big career change. I mean, who knows if you are driving a car, you can’t reprogram the sat nav while you are still driving.

So you need to be able to have time just to pull over. And not saying stop working, I’m saying see if there’s a way that you can actually dedicate time during the week and put some real boundaries around it. Like, okay, well, you know, on a Thursday night between whatever, I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna sit and I’m gonna think I’m gonna do some work on this. I’m gonna do some Googling, I’m gonna,–

[Jaz]
It’s protected time. 

[Andrea]
Absolutely create some protective time. If you really are thinking that, you know, you’re not actually sure whether you dentistry long-term is for you, then actually I would, you need to think about maybe just having that protected time, but perhaps even just reducing either clinical afternoon or a clinical day.

But these goals need to be smart, so there needs to be a time specific element to it. Otherwise, we just get carried away and we do other stuff. But if you are like, “Right, okay, in the next four months I’m gonna make a decision about where I want my career to go, or what kind of post-graduate training, or what kind of jobs I think I’m going to shadow, or what I’m gonna find out what’s right for me.” So create protective a time– 

[Jaz]
Finding a mentor of a certain kind was giving an example like, I want to get a mentor in implants and I need one local to me, could be your main thing that you’ve identified that’s gonna help you to, to go to a next gear. 

[Andrea]
Yeah, absolutely. But things need to be, I would say it needs to be time specific to make sure that you are actually gonna do it. 

[Jaz]
It’s human nature because if you don’t have any urgency, then everything else will just fill up and that will get left behind. So I, I totally agree. If you actually write down a specific date and specific time and where you’re gonna be at that time when you’re gonna make the decision, then that can be quite a powerful, like it just gives you your mind some clarity.

[Andrea]
Yeah. Absolutely. So having the protected time to be able to do that is going to really help you. So yeah, so we’re getting clear on our why we are creating protected time to kind of do go through that thought process and then putting the work of whether that’s, like you say, finding the mentor, doing the Googling, doing the research— 

[Jaz]
Doing the shadowing for maybe some areas that might interest you, that you think, okay, I could pivot my career into sleep, or I could pivot into endodontics and then actually doing your due diligence and, and shadowing. because you might decide, actually that wasn’t for me because X, Y, and Z.

[Andrea]
Yeah. And I think, for some people, if they’re in a similar situation to what I was and they like variety and obviously we get a lot of variety in practice anyway. But if you want variety as in different types of jobs, I think that dentistry is incredibly unique. Like I truly believe there isn’t a degree out there that gives you the amount of flexibility and opportunity that a dental degree does.

The fact that I do clinical practice on one day, and then I might be talking to somebody else on another day, or I’m working on my computer, on a project on another. It’s actually, when I look at it, it’s all insane. And obviously that gives me a tremendous amount of pleasure.

But the fact that I can even do that, I can’t think of any of my friends that have done. Other degrees and qualifications that have that level of variety to their week. So, you know, it could be that you think, well, do you know what actually, maybe I’d like to go and demonstrate at a dental school, or, you know, just do that as a general practitioner, half a day. A week just,—-

[Jaz]
Or even, i’m just thinking out loud here, dental charity work, dental aid- Absolutely. Some people have gone into that and they love that they get so much fulfillment from their career from that. 

[Andrea]
Yeah, no, there’s absolutely loads of things that, 

[Jaz]
Oh, business. But the business of dentistry, sorry. So some people get a kick out of owning three to four practices, and then for that reason, they only had to, I read someone from a colleague I really respect. He said, when you get to about four practices and you own four practices, you really kind of have to think about giving up clinical dentistry because it’s a big ordeal if you’re gonna manage to a high degree of success.

But that might be different for different people. You know, you might still keep your hand in clinical, but certainly you might find that the whole marketing element and hiring and the, and the managerial stuff you get. Kick out of that and having a vision for your practice and employing the right, not employing, but hiring the right associates in your team and building that team. And it’s like a project development. That could be your calling. 

[Andrea]
Yeah. Completely. And I think another thing that we need to do is look at, you know, especially when we were talking about stress. because obviously we’re all under stress to some level, obviously, how much and what that stress is, it depends on you and your individual circumstances.

But I think certainly when I was a younger dentist, I would hear this word resilience and I would think, “Oh, okay, well I’ve just got a tough up. This is what it’s like. I just need to keep cracking on and eventually it might get better.” And so there was definitely this misunderstanding between resilience in terms of toleration versus adaptation.

And so it’s just if you are finding that some” Oh gosh, you know i’m driving to work and I’m feeling it today. Like, it’s an understanding like why it is. And then once you’ve worked out those specific stress triggers, how can you manage those?

Like, if it is like the example I gave about autonomy and the diary, right? It’s actually quite an easy one to fix. You know, there’ll be some things that are harder to fix, and you might be like, actually, no, this is not the right environment for me. I need to change environments. But again, it’s getting clear about what it is that’s specific to you that causes you stress and anxiety, and then coming up with a manageable plan as to how you can either adapt to it or ultimately, if you can’t do that, then remove yourself from that.

The final bit of advice is actually, no, there’s two. There’s another one that’s just coming to my head. So, community, community is a such an important part obviously you’ve built this incredible community through Protrusive and, but you’ve really going to find your tribe.

And it is not just about finding a community online. It’s about finding people who you can pick up the phone to you see face to face, who understand what it is like to be doing your job. Because dentistry is so, so unique, it’s very hard to explain it to somebody who’s not a dentist what the realities of the job are and why it is can be very challenging sometimes. 

[Jaz]
I just wanna give an example of that, Andrea, my, my wife she’s a dentist, she’s a community dentist. She’s now pivoting into private practice pediatric private practice, got MSC in Paeds. Massive imposter syndrome. She’s being kept up at night. 

She’s having this huge imposter syndrome, and I’m saying, Sim you can be absolutely great. You can be fine. But, then I got her in contact with the Dental Mums network. It’s a new network that’s been set up and she’s going to their, like inaugural conference in a couple of weeks time, which I think is wonderful.

That’s like, she’s finding a real in-person event. The magic of in person, you can’t be replaced and she’s gonna go there and won the talk. Is all about Impost syndrome and these are really high achieving women in dentistry that’s gonna inspire her and to, to find that source of inspiration from, and then look, yeah, look online as well, but look beyond and look, find local as well. And be willing to travel or pick up the phone to find that tribe. Totally agree. 

[Andrea]
Absolutely. And that’s one example of the, many of these, these groups and I’m seeing more and more spring up which is fantastic. It’s the issue I would say that you just need to be aware of is that if it’s only like yearly or couple of, twice a year that you are going to these, these conferences, see if you don’t have a local network, see if you can build that, see the BDA have branch and sections events, there’ll be local dental councils. There’s lots of things that you can get involved with. And also by having that element of community, it’s not just about support, it’s about career opportunities as well.

Think about, because we are such a tiny profession really, that the nature of many jobs don’t, they don’t even come to the online boards.

So to find out about these kinds of. That’s in practice or these other kind of weird and wonderful opportunities that come along, you need to have a strong network in order to be able to access them or even know they exist. So community really is key. The final thing is that you need to enjoy the journey.

And I think going back to the, what we were saying about tick boxing, it’s so easy to kind of steamroll it down this road of, I’m gonna achieve this or I’m gonna get this. Qualification without, and then you get it and then you’re like, okay, what’s next? What’s next? Let’s go, let’s go. And actually, you know, you have what you have achieved just to even qualify or graduate as a dentist is amazing.

Like it’s huge. You have to be able to, if you are looking at the next mountain, you have to look at the mountain you are already standing on. And I think we can be quite bad at that sometimes. And just going, well actually, if you’d shown my 18, 19-year-old self. Who I am, it’s gonna blow their mind.

But it’s having that kind of realization that, you know, well done. You like that. Just having, having that bit of recognition for yourself and it’s not even just looking at the big things. I would say if you were in just one of the massive things that will make a difference to you in practice is looking at your micro wins.

All get really focused on. I don’t think that prep point as well as I don’t think I’d got the angle of this or like that could have been better and like we’ve become super self-critical. And actually you are like, no, what, what did go right today? What difference have I made to the people?

I got this person out of pain. Or it could be something really simple but just by taking a moment to think about it actually. I make a difference on a daily basis. And so, yeah, what a privilege. What an amazing privilege that is. And you know, I think that really is kind of the message that I keep, I keep going on about, is that we are in such a privileged position.

We have this incredible degree, we have incredible qualifications and so many people don’t have that privilege. And so the last thing we wanna do is. Is, you know, not utilize it and, you know, not be, not be happy. Because ultimately, you know, if you are happier in what you do, then that doesn’t just affect you, it affects the people you live with, definitely.

But it impacts your patients. I mean, there’s a growing body of evidence to say that happier clinicians have better outcomes. So this is, it’s vitally important, it’s essentially, life is short. Let’s not waste it. Let’s think about things. Let’s give some intention as to what we’re gonna do with our career and our lives, not just for ourselves, but for those around us as well.

[Jaz]
I’m applauding. I love that. That was fantastic. I can’t, I can’t wait to share this with everyone. Andrea, I’m just gonna I guess, round it off by saying, I agree that this is truly a phenomenal profession, but if you’re feeling at this moment in time that, hey, actually it’s not, it’s not feeling like a great profession.

Everyone’s saying that, oh, it’s so much flexibility. Then you’ve cornered yourself, you need to embrace the difficult period. Of either discovery or action taking, taking massive action, picking up the phone, writing an email. The worst thing you could do is just be stagnant and watch the entire world collapse around you and not do anything about it.

One thing I have been good at over the years is taking it by the scruff of the neck and making. Brave decisions and key decisions and sending those emails and having that conversation with my principles wherever it could be to make sure I carve out life by design and by choice, and not wait for things to happen to me, IE being proactive.

Okay. And that’s so, so important, Andrea. How can we learn more from you? How can we reach out to you? How can people send you a box of chocolates and flowers for the mood that they’re in right now? 

[Andrea]
The easiest way is yeah, if, if you wanna send me stuff that’s I’m sure we can provide some form of address. But yeah, the easiest way to contact me is actually through Instagram at Dr. Andrea Ogden. Then you can find out everything you need to know about me and the one-to-one coaching that I do. 

[Jaz]
Excellent. So you’re doing coaching and you’re sharing so much on Instagram, so I highly encourage everyone to follow Andrea. I’ll put her link in the show notes. Thanks for helping us to fall in love with dentistry again. I think it’s so important to do so much CPD on various aspects: cosmetic stuff, composite stuff. 

This is the important CPD right here, reminding yourself how to get out of a tough spot, how to reengage and get refuel, reinvigorated from your career. This is an annual exercise, every monthly exercise. Okay? And so this is so important, and thanks for helping us put this together, Andrea. 

[Andrea]
Oh, it’s been my absolute pleasure. It’s been so lovely to talk to you. Thanks for having me on. 

Jaz’s Outro:
You as well, Andrea. Thank you so much. Well, there we have it guys. Thank you so much for listening all the way to the end. Look, sometimes when you are given advice, you enter paralysis or choice fatigue and you don’t know what to do. Listen, just do one thing. Pick one technique that Andrea talked about, or I talk about the intro and implement it. Maybe that’s gonna be writing down what your ideal day and ideal week looks like.

Even if it’s so far from what your reality looks like at the moment. If you actually put pen to paper in some protected time to, to actually discover what does your ideal day and ideal week look like, and then for the next few years or few months, or wherever your timescale is that you choose, you relentlessly chase that, my friends, and feel free to share it if you’re on Protrusive guidance right now.

Put it in the comments or start a new community post. We are all friends here. It’s a safe space, and we’d love to hear from you. This episode, by the way, is eligible for CPD or CE credits. Protrusive Education is a pace approved education provider, and now CP credits are valid all over the world, including us, Australia, New Zealand, you name it.

We have two main plans that. All you have time for is the podcast, and that’s where you wanna get the CE for. Then we have the podcast plan, but if you also wanna access all our master classes that we have and some of the best dental webinars you’ve ever seen, I promise you you’ll never laugh so hard and learn so much from these webinars that we have.

And that’s from our Ultimate Education Plan. So you can choose your protrusive flavor. I’ve put in the show notes, by the way, how to get in touch with Andrea and her Instagram link. If you like this episode, please let her know we need more people like Andrea in the world. And you know what? We need more people like you in the world.

Thank you so much. For reaching all the way to the end. It shows that you are dedicated, it shows that you really want to make a difference for yourself, for your loved ones, and for your career. My friends, I’ll catch you same time, same place next week. Bye for now. And of course, thank you so much, team Protrusive for behind the scenes, all the hard work they do.

Bye bye now.