Communicating Fees, Treatment Plans and More – PS015

Teaser: They’ve selected you either by a geographical convenience or recommendation or whatever. They now ended up in your chair, right? So, all you are ever giving them is an opinion. That’s it. Okay. Here’s the stupid thing, Nav, right? You say to a patient 120, and they’re still gonna be like, oh, 120. That’s too much, right?

And they didn’t even know that was one 50. You just counted it. The worst you could do is you give a discount, but the patient ever knows that you got a discount. That’s the worst thing, that’s the stupidest thing ever. 

[Nav]
Well, I’m with you. 

Jaz’s Introduction:
Patient communication is one of those things that you just don’t get taught at dental school, like a few other things. Again, not their fault. We always talk about it never being the fault of dental school. They just need to make you a safe beginner. But the kind of things we worry about once we qualify is how do we actually make a connection with the patient? How can we communicate fees with the patient? And just how do you communicate the patient’s options without coercing them into a particular treatment or trying to be salesy to a patient.

These are all things I cover with Nav Bhatti. Now, Emma is doing her finals at the moment, so we wish her all the best. You got this, Emma. But I tell you this episode really packs a punch. We talk about body language, we talk about building rapport. We talk about patients that you just won’t get along with and how you should manage those, and how over time your patients become a reflection of you. And interestingly, we also discuss your money mindset. It’s actually important when you’re communicating with key paying patients. 

Hello, Protruserati. I’m Jaz Gulati and welcome back to your favorite dental podcast. This is the student arm, but I tell you, these episodes are not just for students, especially this one. Anyone who’s struggling with communicating fees to patients or anything around being a more effective communicator, I really think you’ll gain a lot from this episode. So make sure you listen all the way to the end. 

This one is eligible for CPD or CE credits. There’s only one place you can get that, and that’s on Protrusive Guidance. Please do download the app on. iOS or Android store, but to actually make an account, the best way to do that is on the website. That’s protrusive.app. You can try one of our paid plans, and I’m convinced you’ll love being part of the nicest and geekiest community of dentists in the world. Let’s now join Nav, who’s a dental student in Slovakia. As he asks some truly wonderful questions around patient communication, catch you in the outro. 

Main Episode:
Nav Bhatti. Today’s filling in for Protrusive Student. Emma is doing her finals as we speak right now. We’re excited to grow this with you as well, my friend. Just remind everyone about yourself, my friend. 

[Nav]
No worries. I’m trying to fill in for Emma for now, which is huge boots to fill by myself and a fourth year dental student in Slovakia of all places, which is a six year course. So I’m not quite at my penultimate year. But, we are almost there, so, it is going quite well. 

[Jaz]
And if anyone hasn’t listened yet, we know we talked about your journey right, in a previous episode, and that was really cool. You inspired a lot of people, so please do listen to his backstory, how you went from country to country. And finally, you are still a little bit, few years away still, but your enthusiasm, your passion, your drive is amazing. 

[Nav]
Thank you. A lot of it I must thank sort of Protrusive as a whole community. Your podcast. It kind of keeps myself and my colleagues sort of kicking, inspires us on a daily basis. I’m not just saying that for the sake of it, it genuinely does to see so many people out there supporting us on our journey is just amazing. 

[Jaz]
And it’s been nice to also see your contributions on the Protrusive app. Like you took out some teeth recently, you saw some surgery recently, and you’re posting about that. So it’s great to have your student viewpoint. And of course today, probably in the title, this may not even be a Protrusive student episode because communication is communication.

This is like the biggest thing in dentistry is far more important than your clinical skills. I’ll just say that right off the bat. Far more important than your clinical skills. So I’m excited to record this episode with you today and just any questions that you have in this sphere and to take it. So Nav, take it away, my friend. How can we help? 

[Nav]
For sure. I think communication obviously is huge, as you quite rightly said, but for some weird reason, it’s just never taught. At university, you get all this theory, you get all this clinical kind of workload and they teach you how to do fillings and extractions and whatnot, but they never really get you to communicate with the patient effectively.

So this whole realm, I thought, who better to ask than yourself? And kind of drill into it. So I think to start it off as a question, what are the typical do’s and don’ts as a top layer with patients when it comes to communication? And then I’d love to ask you more about sort of dental team and dealing with sort of tricky patients, but we’ll get into it, but if you don’t mind starting with that top layer, then we can go from there. That’d be great. 

[Jaz]
Okay. So I have read a fair few book, smart communication over the years. One of the first books I read is like The Power of Body Language or something like that. So immediately when you said that, the first thing that came to my mind in terms of do’s and don’t, so guys like those listening, watching. Me and Nav don’t rehearse these questions that I don’t really prepare for. I just let them come and we just talk about it in a candid way. So automatically the don’t I that I think of is you are typing and your patient’s talking.

Okay. Or even you are writing things, and the patient’s talking and your eyes are actually looking at the paper. Okay? So then you’re like, well, how do I record everything if the patient’s talking? Well, we’re at an age now. Maybe that was an issue. A few years ago now we use AI. I use Digital TCO, I use DAN to audio record and my nurse as well.

So before it was my nurse. So I would be heavily relying on my nurse, kind of being a typist, like doing a complete transcript with what the patient says. So I’ve got a record of everything there. If I wanna look at it again to like bring, collect all my thoughts, but I’m really attentively looking at the patient and really making them feel like, hey, this guy really cares. He’s listening, and doesn’t interrupt. So the ultimate two don’ts of not to do is don’t have your back to them. Don’t have your eyes away from them. Keep your eyes on them. Face them, face them front on.

And what I also want you to do is make sure you are genuinely an active listener and not really listening to respond. Because there was some sort of stupid stat whereby a dentist on average. We’ll interrupt the patient in the first five seconds of them talking. 

[Nav]
Oh, one thing that I’ve got right, which you’ve definitely hit the nail on the head there in terms of interrupting, but I feel as though this is also linked to confidence almost. Now, forgive me if I’m wrong here, and correct me if I’m wrong, but I feel as though I probably do it and a lot of my colleagues do it, that when we do have the opportunity with a patient, we kind of blur and is that a confidence thing? Because we’re trying to collect all of our information, everything that we’ve been taught, and then we’re trying to diagnose and we’re trying to do everything at once.

How do you like, put that in the back of your head and just relax and ease and as you said, just listen. Because there’s been cases, I’ll give you an example. Like there’s been plenty of times where a patient will say something and immediately your head as a student says, is that irreversible pulpitis? Or, I better start diagnosing it now, otherwise I’m gonna forget.

So then you start asking questions like, is it pain when you get cold, stimulus is pain when you get hot. It’s like, shut up and just let ’em talk. But how do we as students kind of just ease off because it’s so hard to do, but what’s your best kind of advice for that? 

[Jaz]
My advice for you, Nav, is I think you’re being very harsh on yourself, right? You are literally at a stage now where just like you said, you are consciously trying to collect those information. Like for someone who’s got more experience. It just comes naturally because they’ve done it. They’ve heard the patient a million times talk about this. If the patient walks in, they know the diagnosis already.

Okay? So that is a very different position to where you are, where you are actually actively learning still as you are still conversing with the patient. So it is very tough what you’re doing actually, because you’re trying to make the patient feel listened to, but at the same time, you’ve got this million thoughts in your head and you are trying to figure out, wait, am I off the market? Is this correct? What’s the R stand for in Socrates, again? 

[Nav]
Exactly. 

[Jaz]
You know what I mean? So you are collecting your thoughts so don’t be so harsh on yourself. That’s normal, and I think that will come with experience. The more you do it, the more slick you become, the more fundamental understanding of dentistry that you collect.

Your conversational flow will come. And so I think, I don’t think there’s a cheat code except you’ve gotta do your reps. And so, but the thing is that you are up already because you are actively thinking about that. And the fact that you are already, you’ve told the universe that you care about communication.

You wanna become a better communicator in time. You will. I would say that now the best way to do it is maybe jot a few keywords down. Because obviously and where you are now, you’re able to access the kind of things I mentioned, but write a few key words down, but really focus on being an attentive listener.

Having said that, I said that not interrupting the patient, but do you know Nav? What kind of patients will blabber and just cook and talk and talk and not give you the dentist a chance? Do you know what kind of patient? 

[Nav]
That was genuinely gonna be where I was gonna segue into, because that is the next issue, is that if you shut up, sometimes they kind of feel as though. I gotta just keep talking. Yeah. Because is that the awkward silence? Right. And it’s like who fills it? Yeah. So what do you do with that? 

[Jaz]
Well, let’s first identify a telltale sign. Okay. So when a patient is doing that and they say their bit, but they’re just going on and on and on and on, that is a classic sign of something. Can you think of what? Have you experienced this? 

[Nav]
I’m gonna say, is it anxiety, maybe nervous? 

[Jaz] Absolutely. Nailed it. It’s anxiety. They’re nervous and they do that. So I’ve seen it time and time again. So if you recognize that sometimes what these patients, what they’re really craving for, they’re not telling you is that, hey, I feel listened to, but can you just take hold of me and just direct me?

Okay. So for most people who aren’t nervous, I mean it’s normal to be nervous a little bit at the dentist, right? But for those who have manageable anxiety, then what I recommended first is good, let them speak and then have your thing. So ask open-ended questions first, and then narrow in on closed questions.

So questions that you’re looking for, yes or no, that’s closed. But how was your journey? Today is an open question. Tell me more about your toothache. That’s an open question. Whereas is it the top left one that hurts, is a yes, is a closed question, right? So you wanna narrow it down.

So later in the conversation as you’re starting to nail your diagnosis and they’ve given you enough information to feed on. But if they’re just going in a waver direction and they’re lacking structure and they’re kind of crying out for help. And so sometimes, depending on your rapport with a patient and how you feel this will go, is sometimes saying, hey, patient. By the way, look, I’m gonna just help to direct this conversation ’cause I think we’re really close now and I’m gonna help you just remind them. I’m gonna help you. But I just say, patient, how are you feeling? Are you nervous about being here today? And then sometimes they kind of like.

Ah, yes, I am nervous. And they had the opportunity to just let you know about them and then what they’re craving from you at that point and say, hey, don’t worry. Me and my nurse are really gonna look after you. We’re gonna be really kind to you and then direct them. I think that’s a really nice touch to add to nervous patients.

[Nav]
Okay, and let me flip this for you. What about those that don’t talk enough? How are you gonna get that vital information extracted out of ’em? Because I’ll tell you now. I’ve had that issue before. People just don’t wanna tell you anything. I sometimes look at them and think, are they just scared to talk to me? ‘Cause they don’t want me to work on them. But surely you’ve probably come across the opposite ends. So how do you deal with extracting information when you need it? 

[Jaz]
Listen, if the patient is not saying much, but they’re saying what a few words they’re saying, they’re very impactful and you are able to nail your diagnosis and you have enough and some people just aren’t very talkative. Right? And that’s okay. And that’s their personality type. Maybe they’re a quieter individual, maybe they’re introverted and that’s okay. But if you are still not getting enough, you then just need to probe more. And sometimes just give the silent and then raise your eyebrows and nod and invite them.

Okay. And repeat back what they said. So you said this, but can you just please expand more on this? ‘Cause I just need more information about that to get my diagnosis so that I can help you. So keep waving the carrot. I’m gonna help you. So that I can help you, I just want more information. Can you tell me more about this? So you’re still keeping it open-ended. Tell me more about this. But then eventually you can narrow into the close ended questions. 

[Nav]
Okay. I love this idea of like the filter of starting open and then just getting to your target point. That’s also, I’m gonna actually start using that a lot, so thank you for that. More so with my colleagues and myself as I’m talking as a group almost, but we are as a group coming across a lot of patients that are beginning to what we think, and this is assumption. Not telling us the whole truth. And we don’t know why. We kind of have conversed with each other and said, is it because they’re scared?

Because they don’t want a certain treatment? Have you ever come across this? Is this like a common thing that people are not telling you the whole truth? ‘Cause maybe they don’t want an injection or they don’t want a feeling done, they’re just trying to lie to us to get out the chair. How do you overcome that? Maybe clinically you’ve noticed there’s something blatantly obvious, but then they’re like, nah, no, no, it’s not painful. It’s absolutely fine. But they’re flinching on percussion, let’s say, for example. How do you deal with that? 

[Jaz]
Yeah, that’s a tough one. At the same time, you wanna be respectful to the patient and you don’t wanna disrespect them by saying, Hey, you’re not being true. But as House MD said, patients lie. Okay, so it’s a fact of life, and you have to kind of dig deeper into, okay, what do we think? And assumptions are not good. Assumptions are not good, but sometimes if we genuinely think the patient’s having us on here. We wanna find out what could be their motive.

And I think if you encounter that scenario, be like, like let’s say you tap a tooth, okay? And the patient’s flinched, but they’re saying, no, no, it doesn’t hurt. Be like, well a patient, you know what? I’m just really worried for you because of the signs, you’re not telling me that it’s hurting, but it looks as though it should be really painful and so that can help you.

Can you just really confirm that? Are you sure that wasn’t even a little bit? So sometimes you wanna just encourage them a little bit and explain. So a big theme of what I wanna discuss with you now today is one of my things, which most things I’ve learned in communication are always learned either from books or from colleagues or shadowing people.

But this one I believe I probably got from Zak Kara, and it shows you are working out. And I just love this so much. Cause anytime I’m giving options to my patients or anything I’m explaining, I give them things like the background, how I arrived at this question, how I arrived at this conclusion.

There’s this famous study in psychology whereby there’s a long queue back in the days when there used to be photocopiers, right? There was a long queue and these students were waiting to photocopy something, right? I think it might have been a Harvard study, right from memory. Anyway, so imagine there’s a long queue, okay?

And then you’ve got something in your hand that you wanna photocopy. Now imagine you go right to the front of the queue, okay? You tap on the person who’s photocopying right now, or the next person actually, and you say, hey, can I please go in front of you? Okay? And if you say that. You’d be amazed that a significantly higher percentage of people actually surprisingly said, okay, fine.

And they did it okay, but it wasn’t like really, really high. Okay? But then if you say, can I go in front of you because I need to photocopy? Now, obviously you need to photocopy. You got a paper in your hand and you’re going to approach a photocopier. But just by giving them a reason, it shot up like 93%, like it significantly made a difference in terms of the person letting you skip the cue.

And so this is a psychological experiment. What it teaches us is, don’t just say something. If you actually give them a why, that actually matters a lot more. And that’s kind of the base of the show you’re working out. So for example, like telling someone that they’d benefit from a root canal potentially to save their tooth.

Like, hey, I think for you, I think to save the tooth with a root canal is probably the best idea. I know it’s gonna take more time. I know it costs more, but the reason I came to this conclusion is that if you lose this tooth, you won’t have a bite on the left side anymore, and then you’ll be chewing only on the right side and over time that can cause its own issues. 

For that reason, I think we should do this rather than, hmm, I think I like to save teeth. Let’s do a root canal. It’s just giving them more context and sometimes you try to speak their language. 

[Nav]
Yeah, I love that. I love that. I think that is something I wanna ask you about terminology, and if you don’t mind, just before I ask you that, kind of bringing it back a bit when it comes to almost offering treatments. I love this idea of giving the why, but is there like a fine line almost between doing that and almost pushing and encouraging people to take a certain treatment option? Because apparently that’s like a big no-no, right? Like we shouldn’t kind of just say you should do this, but you also have this option.

How do you manage the wording for that? Especially when it comes down to being a professional dentist and then you’ve got so many legal issues involved. How do you word things correctly when you are giving options? But then obviously in your head you probably know what the best option should be for the patient. How do you present that? 

[Jaz]
That’s a million dollar question. I love that because that’s something I’ve really tackled with and a big confusion area for me, and I think I’ve gained a lot of clarity over the years through experience and speaking to mentors and great people in communication, and I think we all need to remember, okay, that anything, so firstly, that’s all I remember. Whenever you post an image on Protrusive Community or anywhere you post it, right? I mean, I know actually the agreement rate in Protrusive is pretty high amongst each other. Okay. But even now, they all disagree with each other respectfully. What I like about our community is that we’re very respectful and disagreeing with each other, right?

But you ask a dentist for your opinion, right? And if you ask seven dentists who get 12 opinions. You see what I mean? Right. So firstly, okay, you must appreciate that there are so many opinions out there. Every dentist will give a different opinion, which is absolutely mad to just remember.

But then remember that when a patient comes to you, they’re coming to you, they’re seeking your opinion. They’ve selected you either by geographical convenience or recommendation or whatever. They’re now ended up in your chair, right? So, all you are ever giving them is an opinion. That’s it. And so remember, I know we’re very international people all over the world listen to this podcast, but our standards that we follow in the UK and I’m sure and we’re one of the strictest regulators in the world, right?

GDC. So if it satisfies us, it probably satisfies where you are in your country, which is we are allowed and we should make a recommendation. It actually says in the standards, you should make a recommendation. And so we are allowed to make a recommendation. So you’re not saying anything wrong.

You’re not coercing the patient, you’re not persuading them down a certain way by making a recommendation. But really the question really is the recommendation that we’re making, is it on a sound basis? And it should not be for profit. It should not be for your gain. It should genuinely be in the patient’s best interest.

So if you’ve got five different options to treat a problem, okay, and you are not sure which one to recommend, that just means one thing. That one thing that means that you haven’t asked a patient enough questions. For example, you should ask a patient, would you like something removable? Or do you like something fixed? It’s like playing guess who? You know that game? Guess who? 

[Nav]
Yeah. Right. 

[Jaz]
Once you’ve asked enough questions, there’s like two dudes who could be, that’s it. And then be like, okay, well is this option or that option? ‘Cause you told me already that you want something removable because of the idea of a fix and you want something that’s gonna be on this budget and you want something as quick as possible based on that, it’s either gonna be do nothing or a denture.

Okay, because of the fact that you told me that you’d like to choose steak. I think based on that, I would recommend the denture. It would cost this much. It’ll involve disappointments. The other option is to do nothing. But then by doing that option. This is the disadvantage, basically. And so I think that’s a very simple way to do it.

Once you’ve figured out what the patient’s goals are by asking lots of good questions, it’s just like, guess who? You kind of know what to recommend and you are allowed to recommend. Yes, you should give the other options, including do nothing. But it’s totally fine to recommend and I think make peace with that. And all yours is, is an opinion and that’s okay. 

[Nav]
I love that. Okay. So as long as that’s the case, that’s great. And I mean, one thing that you mentioned there is obviously about questioning and I think that is the way that we’re gonna get down to everything. But where’s the sweet spot? Or is this also an experience thing?

Because surely, I’m guessing that you’ve seen this newly qualified dentists or even students like myself, we probably babble a lot and we probably ask a million questions and bore the patient or we ask for too much. What’s kind of the sweet spot? And I’m guessing is it only learned through experience or is there any kind of tips that you can give us there as always as to not overdo it?

[Jaz]
I think experience is a huge one, and your environment actually matters as well. And what I mean by that is when I started my career, like most dentists in the UK, I was in NHS practice, right? And so some days I’d see 26, 35 patients in a day. Okay? And now I see like one patient, it’s a holiday treatment or like eight patients or 12 patients.

Do you see what I mean? It’s a different flow. And so you have to become very efficient in that practice, in interest practice. I’m not saying that that’s the best way or the worst way. I’m not saying either of those things. It’s just the way it is because you are catching targets. You are in a publicly funded environment, okay?

And that’s how it is. And so that makes you think fast. That makes you be like, okay, well here’s the problem. Here’s my differential diagnosis. I’ve nailed my diagnosis. Therefore, the option of this, you become very slick at doing that. And so being in that environment accelerates it.

And then the difference now is I use those same skills, but I really work on building a rapport with a patient so that they really feel listened to. And I get to actually talk to them through their radiograph. I get to show them their intraoral camera photos. And once they have that done, they’re just amazed because most colleagues they’ve seen before may have not done that.

And therefore they come to you and they’re never going to wanna see anyone else ever again. Because the way that you explained it, the way how patient you were, how open you were to welcoming questions and the clarity in which you explain those options in their own language without using jargon was something that they’re always gonna remember. 

So it comes to experience in a way. So that’s the honest answer. It comes with experience, but you experience working in both those environments, a fast pace and a slower pace. And then sometimes you just use skills from either one. 

[Nav]
Okay. So definitely experience. It seems like quite a lot of this is experience based and so at least it’s putting me in a good frame of mind that I’m not just completely failing at this stage. 

[Jaz]
And now I’m like, let’s see, I am 12 years qualified now? Which is still a baby, in terms of the long career that we have, okay, so I take advice and I take the experience and mentorship from those who’ve been in the game for 30 years, right?

And what they’ve all told me is that over time, maybe it’s the gray hairs or whatever, but like getting patients to agree to treatments, okay? And I say that in a way, not for profit, not for case acceptance and grossing and that kinda stuff. I say it in a way that when you recommend a treatment for their benefit, for their health that the patient actually values their health and goes ahead with it because that’s the best thing for them. 

So in that kind of frame, the dentists have said that either it’s because they’ve seen the patient for so many years, or just the way that the dentist now says it, right? When the dentist has so much experience, honestly, you don’t care if the patient says yes or no.

It doesn’t matter, right? If you eat tonight or not, it will not depend on that, okay? And when you are not desperate for it, and you are literally just there as an advisor to the patient, okay? And you’re like, what would you like to do this over to you? How can I help you? Okay? When you come with that frame over time and you get those gray hairs and you get the experience and you’ve been there before, and I think patients can smell the confidence, okay?

And so a lot of it will come from time. Maybe it’s ’cause one of the reasons I don’t dye my beard yet is ’cause I like the gray hairs. It shows a lot of experience and so maybe it’s just, they all tell me that, maybe it’s with experience that patients don’t have to try as hard patients actually just want to do everything you say because of you just having more experience.

[Nav]
Okay. You said their patients can smell the confidence. On the other end of the stick, can they actually smell the BS is all? And the reason I ask you that, there’s two types of people, right? There’s two types of, let’s say dentists for the sake of it, there’s those that have one personality and they’re true to themselves and they do it with everyone.

And there’s the chameleon, right? That’s doing a bit of everything because they’re seeing the patient and they’re adjusting according to. What’s your advice on that? Because again, patients aren’t thick, right, and they can figure things out. So how do you approach that? What would be your advice around kind of personality and how to kind of exude that in a way that isn’t BS basically?

[Jaz]
Again, you asked some amazing questions. I’m gonna say be a modified chameleon. What I mean by limited chameleon is because I value individuality. So I did a Tom Rath StrengthsFinder book years ago, and one of my five strengths is individuality. So one of my core strengths is individuality, meaning that I treat the individual as an individual. 

I know there’s protocols and stuff that we apply to everyone, but if someone, if a teenager comes or if a kid comes, I’m gonna talk about that kind of stuff and I become a big kid and stuff and it’s very easy, very fluid for me to do that. And then when the sweet old lady comes.

I change, I adapt very easily. So I think it’s good to be the chameleon. And good to, and when that engineer comes, okay, you talk like an engineer and you put a different frame on, you put a different mask on, right? And I think the other topic that’s just very related before we cover this in a bigger way, but very related to this, is the fact that we are in theater, not the medical theater. 

We are in showmanship. We are in Hollywood, baby. Okay. What I mean by that is when you have a tough day and your kids are not having their breakfast and you had a, maybe a tiff with your wife and then you’re going into work whatnot, and you woke up on the wrong side of bed and last night there was an issue at home or whatever.

You have to forget everything you put on this mask, okay? When you put on those gloves, the lights are on the makeup camera. Action. At that moment in time, the patient must feel that they are the only person in the world. That’s how important that you need to make them feel. You need to forget everything ’cause we owe that to our patients. 

So there is a degree of showmanship and turning up and putting on a performance, okay? And some people don’t like to hear that. This is what I’ve been taught by one of my first principles, Dr. Hap Gill. And I think it’s true. I think what we do is performance. And just like performers, when you act, you act in a different role according to the movie, alright?

And the movie will be different every time, and the script is different every time. You are still the same person. You still have your mannerisms, you still have your, I’m not saying change yourself, you are yourself, but you are being this modified chameleon to blend to the scenario, to blend to the individual.

Now, the reason I mention the word modified is that because you need to draw a line in the sand and set some standards. What I mean with that is I’ve decided a long time ago, that if any patient right, is rude or just not a nice person or you know what? That we are really not seeing eye to eye and that we are clashing.

Okay. Thankfully it doesn’t happen very often, but there are some patients that it can happen to. I’ve got some funny stories I can tell you about this later. But the other way to think about this, it’s a long way of saying it, but when you look at your career. And then let’s say you have been in one practice for several years, you’ll notice that you attract patients that are similar to you, right?

Oh, so my patients are the ones that don’t gel with you. They’ll go somewhere else eventually. Or see the other dentists. My patients are bubbly, my patients are talkative, and they’re very much like a representative of me. And that happens over time. You’ll notice, and that’s a sign of you doing something well, and that’s a sign of happiness.

You get along with your patients. It’s a gelling that you have, basically. And so the reason I mention that, and going back to I decided a long time ago. There’s a certain type of patient that I still have a duty of care to and I’ll still make sure they’re out of pain and stuff.

But if I’m only doing any elective treatment, right, if I’m only doing a smile makeover, if I’m doing any orthodontics, if I’m doing a full mouth rehab, I’m doing a tooth wear case. Okay? I’m not gonna touch that. I’m gonna say, look, maybe it’s better you see someone else for this kind of work. 

Interjection:
Hello YouTube Protruserati. I know you’re watching on YouTube and I hope you enjoyed this episode so far. But I wanted to highlight, in case you don’t know yet, we have an amazing viewing experience on Protrusive app, our website, our network, our platform. So I just wanna spend a minute to show you what this looks like.

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We have all these polls. We have a chat group. There’s always active chats and dentists helping dentists, and really what I want to do is create a really supportive environment that’s not like the environment we have on Facebook, and it’s built on the values of niceness and geekiness. If you are nice and geeky, you belong here.

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[Jaz]
I’d rather see the patients that we truly have a connection. Because if we don’t have a connection, I’ll get them out of pain. I’ll still be courteous and respectful of them, but if I generally do not think that we will gel together. There are someone else that will do your work, but they’ll gel much better with that patient, with that dentist. Sorry. And so, there is teamwork. There are other dentists out there who will gel better with other patients and let let the universe find that solution for them. 

[Nav]
I like that. And then obviously you mentioned there about rude patients and then you don’t try to distance yourself from them. As students, especially when we are Yes men, let’s be fair. We don’t really have the power to tell people to like, do wanna go to another practice? How do we deal with it? Because we’re not ever seen as dentists, right. We’re seen as understudies and maybe we don’t get as much respect as fully qualified practitioners. What advice would you give to students in my position that might come across a tough day where somebody’s not respecting us?

Treating us like doormats. How do we kind of put that professionalism back into that workplace between patient and dentist and then not let it affect us mentally? Because let’s be fair, we are probably the most fragile creatures. When we’re students, because any critique and suddenly we’re like, oh. We’re in the wrong profession. We’re not good enough, yada yada. How do we deal with difficult patients? What would be your kind of communication tips for that? 

[Jaz]
I mean, that’s brought so many thoughts to our mind. The first thought is that they say that when you go on a first date with someone, right? And you are in a restaurant, okay. You look at how they treat the waiter. Before you think about it, okay, so I go on a second date. Should we eventually come in a relationship with someone? You look at how they treat a stranger, look at how they treat other people. That tells you a lot about them, right?

And so, in a similar vein, some of my receptionists will tell me that, Jaz, the patients are so lovely to you, but when they come out to us, they’re really rude to us. And that’s important information because that’s not nice. I mean, if your values are that such that everyone deserves to be treated nicely, then you should record that in your mind and just be mindful of that.

‘Cause sometimes patients can turn. So for me, like niceness is a parative value. One of the reasons that I market Protrusive Guidance as the home of the nicest and geekiest dentist in the world is ’cause I genuinely believe that, if you’re there for the free downloads and you’re not actually wanna contribute, not actually be nice to one another, then you don’t belong in Protrusive, right?

I actually want a collection of just the loveliest humans, humans first, then dentists. So I believe in that and I truly hold that. However, having said that, to answer your question, you as a student, sometimes they’ll be rude to you, but ever so nice to the professor, to the tutor, and you, I’m sure you will experience this, okay?

And that tells you a lot. But in your scenario, you’ve gotta get through it. You’ve gotta suck it up buttercup. Be respectful, be courteous. You’ve got to get through your dental school training. But when you come out in the real world, if you come across patients who are rude to you or rude to your staff, you need to have a policy and a protocol in place.

Okay? So again, we have a duty of care to these patients, okay? And we will get them outta pain and we will speak nice to them and best we can. But you have to think twice whether you really want to make this patient, are you seeing eye to eye? Have you got enough rapport because you need rapport?

Because we don’t have a hundred percent success rates. If you tell a patient that there’s a deep filling and there’s a crack in your tooth, you didn’t put the caries there, you didn’t put a crack in the tooth, the patient came with that. If they don’t own that, right, and they’ll be quick to blame you, the dentist.

Okay? Do you really wanna treat that kind of patient? Do you wanna take that patient on? Not really. So you need to make sure that you see eye to eye with that patient, okay? And then over time, you’ll find that if you adopt this mentality, you will genuinely attract the kind of patients that share the same values as you. Your patients become a reflection of you. 

[Nav]
I love that. I absolutely love that. I think that’s kind of connects to what you said before about over time you’re gonna just have people that are so pretty much you versions of Asians and over time you’re just gonna build that kind of client base or patient base, whatever you’re gonna call it. I’m looking forward to that. I’m looking forward to just seeing loads of Navs. Eventually that’d be quite fun. 

[Jaz]
There’d be different forms of Navs, you know? The old lady with a slight Navism, whatnot. And those patients that they don’t genuinely feel that connection and it’ll be the feeling will be mutual.

You don’t have a connection. And I’m very much coming it through a lens of general dentistry is really fascinating. Like, you go to your doctor, you go to your GP when there’s a problem. Okay? And every time I go to a gp, I’m seeing someone else. We, in dentistry, are such a unique and beautiful position. 

Like one of the therapists, hygiene therapists retired recently. And she’s been seeing, one of my patients, I’ve been seeing this patient for five years, but she was seeing that therapist for 30 years. 

[Nav]
Oh, wow. 

[Jaz]
And on the last day, they both shed a tear. They both cried. Why they cried? And I asked her, tell me more about that. And she said. Well, you know, she was there when I gave birth to my first child. She was there when this happened. You know, she’s been the constant in my life. And now she’s going, and we actually, if you choose to go into general dentistry, family dentistry, and be in a practice, which most of us will do, we cannot.

And honestly underestimate the power of this, to build a relationship. And dentistry is so, so powerful. And when you connect with a patient right, and you have that lovely rapport, they will follow you around. And that’s the best kind of scenario, right? And the patients that you don’t gel with.

You still could be respectful. You still don’t care for them, but you’ll find that eventually they’ll be what we call an attrition rate. As soon as they have to move a mile down the road, they won’t come back to you. And that’s probably for the best. That’s probably for the best, right? They only came to you ’cause of geographical convenience, and that’s all.

And that’s okay. Okay? You are there to serve them and help them, but the kind of pace that you genuinely have a connection with. So that’s what I mean. Over time you’ll find that patients that you’ve held and retain are such a great reflection. And so many dentists tell me that they love their job and they love it more, now more than ever before. Now they’ve been in one practice for 20 years. ‘Cause it genuinely feels like a chat. It genuinely feel like a patient’s coming in for a chat and when something goes wrong, like a tooth, a bit large filling that happened 18 years ago now breaks down and you say to the patient, okay, oh well I can help you.

This will be a post crown. We can do that. This is how much it’s gonna cost and the trust is there. And they’ll be like, yeah, sure. When can we book in? Because the trust is the currency that we deal with. Not economical. It’s all about trust. 

[Nav]
I love it. This is just sounding like a barber shop to me now. It’s like going in there like almost buying- 

[Jaz]
I dunno, I would never know. I’ve never been to a barbershop. 

[Nav]
You’re missing out. I’m telling you. It’s where all the guys get together and have their secrets. But yeah, no, I like this idea, this concept. I think that longevity within our career is rewarding more than just from the financial aspect, but there’s so much big time kind of inter personality within there as well.

That’s amazing. I mean. Going back a few steps and kind of trying to weave this together, so to speak. You spoke about language, which is super important. Students make this mistake all the time. We speak to our patients as though they know everything that we read, right? So we we’re talking to ’em about, oh, you might have a paragraphical lesion here.

We did this and yada. And you need X, Y, and Z. And they just sort of sit and they’re like, what the hell are you talking about? Right? It’s very easy to do that to students. Is this something that you see progressing into dentists that have qualified and they still do it? And what would be your advice to, I don’t wanna use the word, dumb it down, because we’re not trying to say our patients are dumb, but how do we almost normalize the vocabulary with patients? What’s your advice for that? 

[Jaz]
Yeah, great question. And the answer is yes. The jargon. Everyone in dentistry, and I’ve seen some really qualified dentists like you 20, 25 years out, and then the way they’re talking to the patients, like they’re literally, I saw a prosthodontist look at a patient in the eye and tell the patient that in lateral excursion when you go to the left, these teeth are touching. 

Like there’s only a very niche engineered type of patient that will understand what that means and actually the ramifications of it. A lot of dentists might not even understand. So like, I’ve seen this happen, right? And they’re literally saying like, you have a peri apical infection. And even just like I know periodontist right at uni, and he said to a patient, and is this contemporaneous with what your dentist said? And so I’m not saying dumb it down. But like, is that really appropriate? So, if you feel as though the patient has that level of language and you’ve sussed that out, then absolutely.

‘Cause I’m a big believer in that modified comedian and therefore, I must speak like this, isn’t it? If I see someone who’s from the street, I’ll be like, bro, listen. Yeah. You’re two needs to come out and very much I go like that. And that’s fine. And they respect me a lot.

And we get it. I don’t actually do it in that extremity. I was a bit dramatic effect there, but I’m very much like, if the patient wants to fist bump me, I’m gonna fist bump them. Right? So you’ve gotta really meet them where they are. And the best person I saw do this was Raj Patel in Sheffield.

Like when he saw a patient who was a gardener, right? He would literally describe just like that. It’s such a wonderful way he would describe everything that he was doing in dentistry. Like in gardening terms. Oh, if you had a builder or plumber, he’d like it. It was the most magical thing ever. And I learned a lot that day seeing that.

So try and speak to a patient on their own terms. Right. So for example, if you have a teenage girl, right, which was a real world, world scenario, teenage girl, good looking teenage girl. And she was thinking that she had an ectopic canine and she said, oh, you know what? I don’t want braces. I’d rather have it out.

And I’m accepting of this. And then he really spoke her language and said, look, fair enough, it doesn’t bother you now, but when you are 30, when you’re 40, think about your long-term future. And when you smile and I think forgot what he said now, wedding day or whatever, let’s try and just let, help them see the long-term connection and about their friends and stuff and bringing it all in. And the way he spoke to her was like, yeah, you know what? And she was there with her dad that day and she was like, yeah, you know what? You’re right. I think I should get the braces and I think that’s the best for me. And he made her realize that by really connecting with her.

And so when you connect in the patient’s own language and when you connect with someone’s own language, then it’s easy to actually avoid periapical pathology. It’s like, look, you see this black thing over here to some person, to most people, I say, that’s infection. Okay. To the guy off the street, I might say, listen, yeah, that is mush. That is mush in there. Trust me, you want that out. And they are very receptive. 

[Nav]
Okay, so this is going back to this modified comedian thing over and over. I feel like this is the theme, so I’m gonna definitely have to take this in and just adjust depending on the patient. This is amazing information.

Thank you very much. My kind of future question, ’cause obviously we’re not there yet. Might be a great way to wrap up to you, but finances, payment, how the hell do you do it? Like I find it weird to ask my mate for that five back. How do you go and speak to strangers and say, this is the treatment options that you got available and it’s gonna cost your ex, I don’t know how you do it.

Do you do it at the beginning? Do you do it at the end? Do you get someone else to do it for you? Like do you have a card reader in the surgery and you say, pay up now? Or do you send them away? Explain because this, I think we all have sleepless nights as students thinking about this, so please do enlighten us.

[Jaz]
I’m laughing here because literally like everyone, like this theme has been a big one throughout my career and I’m at a comfortable place now with my fees and stuff and I can, I’ll tell you how I do it now, but over the time I tried every method, like I tried this method whereby, ’cause I hate to talk about fees as well, so I’d be like, okay, Zoe will tell you the fees.

Now I just look away. Zoe would like, okay, and she’ll do the work. And some people have treatment coordinators and so they never have to worry about talking about fees. Okay. And so for me, I think it’s a bigger thing here. And a lot of this Lincoln Harris inspired me and some of this, my own little masala here as well.

Which is, it’s a money mindset thing. I come to refugee from Afghanistan. Money is not something that was very prevalent growing up and then coming into dentistry where, me, even me coming in, right? And my parents would never spend the amount, I would then be even then be charging for restoration.

My parents wouldn’t have that kind of money. And then so knowing that and knowing the kind of, it’s like the relationship you have with your parents and how their money mindset goes into you. And for me, I remember and I talked about this, another podcast episode, right? A really, really sad, but funny thing.

A patient who was also a refugee, actually. So this patient’s a refugee, okay. And I’m obviously, I came in with, I was six years old and this patient came from Afghanistan like a few years ago, right? And then I took his tooth out and then he asked me, how much does it cost to replace something here? And I went through all the options, said, okay, how much is an implant?

I said, well, it’s about 2,500 pounds at that point. I said, right, probably more than that. Obviously now it’s definitely more than that. And I even then I remember saying it a little bit like, Hmm, yeah, it’s quite a lot of money, that’s how I said it. And he literally just started to laugh.

He literally started to laugh. Like, not like in a rude way. But in a genuine tickling like hysterics, like that’s hilarious. What are you kidding me? That’s hilarious. It can’t cost that much. Like it was that kind of laughter. You know what I did? I started laughing with him and even I was like, okay.

And so that was like when I was like in my DF one year, one year qualified. And so I had a huge money mindset issue. Because I didn’t have money in my life. And therefore it was difficult for me to talk about money with my patients. When that kind, the kind of treatment plan to do a post crown and this denture was way more than what was in my current account at that point.

And so there was a money mindset issue and I think that’s normal to have that if you don’t come a place of money. I think it’s normal to have that. And so over the years, it is not just that because IQ makes more money and had more income, it’s genuinely, I worked my money mindset and I really read some things.

And really money is a flow of energy. And when you become grateful of a, every time you see money, leave your bank account. You need to look up and say, thank you. Thank you for allowing me to be in a position that I can pay for something. And then when money comes in, be like, again, look at the universe, say, thank you.

Okay. Money is just flowing in. Money is flowing out. Money is just energy and that’s all it is. And so when you then realize that actually you are totally worth it, you are totally worth it. Okay? Because you can go to a fancy place and there could be a wardrobe. A bloody small wardrobe for 40,000 pounds.

And people will buy it and they produce it and people will buy it. Okay? And then when you realize that actually we are not in the money business, we are in the values, the value that you can bring to someone, okay? What we’re selling is health. We are selling health and longevity. If someone can chew better and digest better, once you realize that we are in a health space and there’s nothing more valuable than that, now there are some patients who genuinely cannot afford your fees, and that’s okay.

So when they say no, don’t take it personally, okay? If someone genuinely cannot afford it, okay. Then that’s fine. Now, just because someone has got 50,000 pounds their bank count, don’t think that they’re gonna take your 2000 pound treatment plan. Yeah. Don’t think that it’s a no brainer for them because they may not value it.

So either you haven’t communicated the value or genuinely the patient has a value issue basically. And so the top tip I give here is fix your own money mindset issue. ‘Cause that’s a big part of it. Once you fix your money mindset issue, it becomes easier to talk to. And then I tried all those various ways.

Never was comfortable talking with money, but once you overcome your money mindset issues. And then I had an experience whereby the patient went down and they felt as though I didn’t communicate the fees properly. And if a fee is a surprise to a patient, then that’s not good either. So now I’m in a place now where I’m very open and honest and very direct on my fee is like, okay, so that we can get this done.

The total fee will be 4,500 pounds. Okay. And I say it very confidently. I don’t look away, I don’t blink. I say it very confidently and sometimes what worked for me in the past as well, and perhaps I is worth mentioning ’cause it might help someone, is one of our values in this practice is to be transparent in our fees.

The total fee for everything is 4,500 pounds. This will include all your appointments. The lab work and by the time you come to the end of it, you would’ve paid that amount and you’ll get this work done basically. And so just explain that so that we are transparent with our fees. This is how much it costs, this is what it includes. Is this something that you’d like to go ahead with or do you have any questions, that kind of stuff. 

[Nav]
Ah, I like this. I like this. I think the money mindset is huge as well. It’s how we perceive things. So this is all going in. I’m gonna have to probably do some role play with a few, our mates and that- 

[Jaz]
Yes, Nav, you’re so right. Role play is really, really important. Okay. And wow, so I’m listening to a book at the moment called Psycho-Cybernetics. It’s from like the 1950s. It is like the godfather of self-help books, right? And so it gave birth to the sort of self-help era, basically. The Tony Robbins of the world, et cetera.

And really what it talks about is, is the power of role play and power of imagining yourself. So if you imagine yourself, right, being in the clinic looking confident, being kind and courteous to the patient and with a smile, be able to say, oh, actually it’s gonna cost this month. And the patient saying, thank you so much, I can’t wait to get started.

Okay. And that visualization and then role playing in your head, because here’s a fascinating thing, right? The brain, your brain does not know what is real and what is imagined. So if you literally imagine yourself in a dark room, okay, and all, like you see ghosts and stuff, right? And you’ll start to sweat.

You’ll actually like start as a terrible, terrible example, which is the first thing that came to my head, right? But like your nervous system will actually put a if in, depending on how vivid your imagination is, and how big your fear is. You’ll start to sweat, you’ll have a palpitations. Your brain does not know if that was real or that was fake.

So the other thing is, right, for example, there was another experiment whereby these people do free throws in basketball. They try and get the free throws in, right? So group one does a free throw training every single day. So for 21 days, every single day, they will practice. Okay.

Every single day. Okay. And then group two only practices on day one. And then they get tested at day 21. So group one practices every single day, and then their test is on day 21. Group two only practices on day one. And then they get tested on day 21 between day two and day 20. They did no practice.

And group three, here’s a fascinating one, right? They practice on day one. They do a test on day 21, but in between, they don’t actually practice for real. They practice in their brain, they imagine practicing. Now, the worst group was the one that didn’t practice at all. The best group was the one that practiced every day, but only by like a whisker because the group that imagined getting the ball in.

They were literally only a whisker behind, okay? And they were significantly better than a group that didn’t practice. And so what this experiment shows us athletes do this all the time, the power of visualization. Every time I have to give a lecture somewhere, okay? Like recently I was teaching inclusion in Norway, a full day, like half day lecture.

I was a little bit nervous, but I literally use the power of visualization. What’s my face gonna look like? How am I be dressed? How am I gonna deliver this piece of content? And that really helps me a lot. And so going back to your point when, if anyone’s struggling discussing fees, the power of visualization, the power of roleplaying, even you, you don’t actually need to really do roleplay.

You can roleplay in your mind. You don’t even need a mirror. Just we can do the mirror, but classically do. But if you imagine you doing this and you imagine yourself communicating in the way that you like to portray yourself, then that’s gonna happen. 

[Nav]
Oh, I love that. Do you know when you were saying all that, I just remember something from ages ago. I’m pretty sure David Beckham used this because it was once on a documentary or something and they were mentioning that he does a lot of visualization. And he just repeats. 

[Jaz]
Athletes are renowned for the top athletes all say in golf, in various sports, in top athletes, they do this, they visualize exactly what they’re trying to do, and the brain doesn’t know if it’s real or fake.

The brain’s actually figuring out, even there was an experiment whereby the people are lifting weights. And then people just imagine. Like vividly imagine lifting the weights and they actually got stronger and they’re able to do, they actually got stronger. Okay. This is a real thing.

They actually gained muscle mass. There’s a limit to that obviously, but it’s just a fascinating, see that actually even compared to doing nothing, but just by visualizing you actually grew a bit. 

[Nav]
That’s insane. That is actually a power of the mind. Okay. I love this ’cause this is gonna probably help me in more than just the financial and asking people for or telling them what their costs are for dentistry more. So- 

[Jaz]
Look, the patients need to know how much it costs, right? Like they need to know. And so don’t be embarrassed about the fees, basically. ‘Cause that’s very normal to feel that way, especially for a money mindset issue like I used to have. So, be proud of your fees because you are providing an incredible service, incredible value, right?

And so one thing that helped me a lot as well is because when I was charging someone, let’s say 300 pounds for a restoration, okay, it’s a restoration, not a filling. A filling is what goes in a sandwich, by the way? So when I charged 300 pounds for a restoration, okay, at that point I was questioning, oh my God, I’m charging this much because that’s the how much a practice charges.

But in my own mind is like, is what I’m delivering actually worth 300 pounds? It was a self-doubt, right? And so one of the reasons I went on so many courses, like my first five years, was course, after course, after course, okay? Now, if I’m charging for an hour of my time and I’m charging, let’s say complex, MODB, complex buildup, okay?

And I’m charging 450 pounds, okay? I think I’m cheap. I can charge more than that. And I’d be more happier because honestly, the clarity in my protocols I have, I know my patients are not gonna come back with post-op sensitivity. I know that using air abrasion, I know I’m doing this.

I know that occlusion is gonna be on point. And I’m gonna serve them well. I have this much, and please, I don’t want anyone to see this as arrogance or anything. I really hope it hasn’t come out that way. It is conviction in my training and my belief that I’m gonna really help my patient so that now I come to a point where I’m very easy for me to charge that amount. ‘Cause I truly believe I’ve done so much training, I’m ready for this. I can’t wait to deliver you the best restoration you ever had. 

[Nav]
I love this. I don’t wanna take up too much of your time here, but I do have one question I wanna ask you off the back of this, right? Surely, there must be a time where sympathy kicks in. I can almost imagine myself being an idiot and feeling sorry for patience and sometimes being like, oh, it’s all right. I’ll just discount that, or, that’s right. I’ll just do it for free. Does that happen? Is this just me? Is it everyone? 

[Jaz]
All the time. All the time. Done that. 

[Nav]
How? 

[Jaz]
It’s like what we call a Neuro-fiscal Drag, right? So early in my career, let’s say the figure in my mind is 150 pounds ’cause that’s how much it should be. By the time it comes outta my mouth, it’s lost 30 pounds. Right? It’s 120 right? Now here’s a stupid thing, Nav, right? You say to a patient 120 and they’re still gonna be like, oh, 120. That’s too much, right?

Yeah. And they didn’t even know that was 150. You discounted it. The worst you could do is you give a discount, but the patient never knows that you got a discount. That’s the worst thing that that’s the stupidest thing ever. 

[Nav]
Well, I’m with you. 

[Jaz]
Like literally you gave ’em a discount and they don’t even, they didn’t even feel that. And so what was the point? Oh, you could have said 400. The reaction would’ve been the same. Okay, so, so really? Yeah, I mean, it’s normal, especially for my money mindset background and my refugee background. I felt very sorry for patients and I discounted my treatment plans left front and center. I don’t so much anymore.

I tell you why. As an associate, if you do the maths if you look at profitability of dental practices, when you give a discount, you really, really screw yourself over, but you screw your practice over a lot, like in a massive way. They have so many overheads, materials and everything. It’s an injustice.

Because you gotta gross a certain amount per hour for them to keep the lights on. And so you have to really remember to be respectful to where you work in your principal. And it is a business because if there’s no money in the business, there’s no practice anymore, there’s no job for you anymore, okay?

And so it’s important to charge what you’re worth and charge the right amount. But it’s normal to want to give discounts. And I get it. But over time, when you really appreciate that you are delivering a really good service, and the fact that you need to be respectful to who you work for.

Then I think when you realize that, then I think something clicks and then whilst you can be empathetic and sympathetic of the patient, look and if someone has told you, look, that’s a lot of money. It’s like, look, I appreciate lots of money and how can I help you? Well, can do it in phases. There’s finance plans.

If not now, then we can always save up and do the right thing. Next year, we’ll still be here for you and just be there to, if someone can genuinely cannot afford it, you give them the options and financing and stuff and or come back in the future. Sometimes, John Kois famously said this, like, just because you don’t wanna do the right thing doesn’t mean that I have to do the wrong thing.

[Nav]
Aha. I like that. 

[Jaz]
And so sometimes if you’re gonna make the situation worse for someone, then say, look, it’s better you actually do nothing and save up and then come again next year and then we can help you better. And I genuinely think that’s the best thing for you. And so again, it’s one of those things now that comes with experience.

[Nav]
So we start with experience and I think we’re ending with experience. I think this has been extremely enlightening and I’m sure everyone else who’s in my position and probably even qualified. Really love this. So Jaz, seriously, man, as always, absolutely pleasure. You smashed it, man. 

[Jaz]
Nav, thank you so much. Honestly, your questions were absolutely sick. They’re amazing questions, so I really appreciate it and we’re definitely gonna bring you back on to do more of these. I think you and Emma bring something, a different flavor, which is wonderful. I think that that synergy is gonna be amazing and maybe we’ll have you both on together as well one day. So that’d be good. But we all wish Emma the best with her exams. And have you got any exams coming up? Nav? 

[Nav]
I’m still a couple of months away from it, so I’m still good. And it’s year four, so the hard stuff starts in year five and then six, so I’m taking it easy.

[Jaz]
Great. Well, I can’t wait to publish this. And please plug yourself, you’ve got some stuff out there for dentists and dentist students as well. Please tell us more about your channels. 

[Nav]
Yeah, so I’ve got a YouTube channel called the_stu_DENT, just trying to be cool, then mix dentistry into it somehow, where I’m covering my journey as a dental student, what we cover as dental students the highs, the lows, and vlogging my time here in Slovakia as well. So if anybody can find me on YouTube or I’ll send you the link you can edit. 

[Jaz]
I’ll put the link. Please do subscribe to Nav as well, guys. As you can see, his energy is brilliant and he’s very giving and sharing. So be supportive. And you can message Nav on Protrusive Guidance. He’s on there. He’s very active and so we’re very grateful for that. So Nav, thanks so much for your time as well. I’ll see you in the next one as well. 

[Nav]
Lots of love, man. Thank you very much. 

Jaz’s Outro:
Well, there we have it guys. Thank you so much again and again, again for listening to the end. If you are on the app, scroll down below, answer the quiz to claim your CPD certificate.

We are a PACE approved provider for those of you who call it CE. And if you are new, thanks for joining us today. Please do give us a subscribe and a thumbs up if you enjoyed this episode or you learned something. What a wonderful job Nav did today. So well done Nav. Really, really great questions. I thought you really helped the flow of this episode.

I wanna thank all of the Protrusive team, especially Gian, Erika, Krissel, Mari, Julia, and of course Nav with everything he’s doing. Remember that our community Protrusive Guidance is not just for dentists, it’s for dental students as well. In fact, we have a whole little section for you guys, including Crush Your Exams.

There’s all these notes that Emma has produced and they’re stacking up really nicely at the moment from indirect restorations to dental materials. There are loads of student friendly notes ready to download. Just make sure if you are a student, you email student@protrusive.co.Uk with your proof to unlock some hidden areas.

Thanks so much again for listening. I’ll catch you same time, same place next week. Bye for now.