Associate’s Journey of Growth – IC057

Teaser:
If anyone stops saying, I don’t know which course to do. This is another course you can create. And you know, often, it’s a secret. It can be free. Often it can be free because there’s so many lovely people out there that are willing to say, you know what, if you want to shadow me 12 times in a year on this, like, once a month, I’m happy.

You don’t have to pay me anything yet. Some people will charge and that’s okay. That’s worth it too. But if it’s free, wow. And if even if it’s charged, it’s still worth it because to be able to shadow you learn so much.

Jaz’s Introduction:
Being a general dentist is the toughest gig in dentistry. You have to literally be good and know everything. In this episode I’m joined by Dr Kiran Shakla, a general dentist just like me, and we talk about her journey. I feel there’s so much we can learn when we dissect an individual’s journey. And Kiran’s mindset is really quite special. It’s really going to inspire anyone who’s in the early stages of their career.

Or even if you’re established in your career but you’re not quite happy, you’re not quite settled, you have that itchy foot like Kiran had, then this episode will be really helpful to you. You see, Kiran takes massive action. She moved to Australia all by herself in the middle of nowhere near the outback.

And then when she came back to the UK, she wasn’t quite satisfied. She wanted more, so she did a masters. Now, we discussed in the episode whether a master’s is the right thing to do or not. I have a bone to pick with MSCs. I feel as though there are other ways to gain knowledge or achieve where you want to be in your career without doing an MSC, but it’s great to learn about Kiran’s MSC and how it opened up opportunities and network for her.

We talk about themes of finding the right practice, of mentors, and how lucky she was to have really great mentors. And if you haven’t got great mentors in your life, how to find them. A really simple trick that me and Kiran talk about about halfway in this episode to make sure that you regain control of your life and your career.

How to force some degree of mentorship in your life. We talk about that. And at the end, we have this wonderful exchange where Kiran tells me about her super nurse or super DA that she had and how Kiran was humble enough to learn from the assistant.

Hello, Protruserati, I’m Jaz Gulati, and welcome back to your favorite dental podcast. This is an Interference Cast, a nonclinical episode. It’s got so much about communication and mindset and decision making and how you mold your career. Essentially, if there’s one thing you take away from this episode is have a vision, have a goal and bloody go and get it. Hope you enjoy, and I’ll catch you in the outro.

Main Episode:
Dr. Kiran Shakla, welcome to the Protrusive Dental Podcast. How are you?

[Kiran]
Yeah, I’m really good. Thank you, Jaz, and thank you so much for having me on here. I really hope today we’ll provide some insight to all dentists of all different ages, and hopefully when people look back on their career, or they look at what they do on a day-to-day basis, they can look at it in a more positive light and reflect on it positively.

[Jaz]
You have a journey and we’re talking every time I see you at one of the BDA events, and I learned about what you’re up to. And you told me an interesting thing about how about you’re working in an orthodontic practice, and you managed to get a gig where you’re doing all that restorative work. And I said, wow, Kiran, that’s amazing.

How did you even land that? And so, there’s so much to learn about an individual’s journey. Some of the best episodes we’ve had in the podcast interference cast is just learning about an individual’s journey. Not that yours is the only way, but having your way exposed on the table with all the frailties or the good bits, the bad bits, the warts and all, if you don’t mind, it’s really going to help a lot of people.

And I’m sure you get loads of dentists coming up to you asking, okay, well, how did you get to where you are today in terms of the current work mechanics? I guess we have to start at the beginning, Kiran, tell us about yourself.

[Kiran]
Yeah, definitely. I mean, it’s strange that you say that because I don’t see myself any different to any other dentist. I just think I’m a normal dentist. Just go to work, live life the way you want. And so, I guess my journey started probably when I was 16 when I got my GCSEs results and never wanted to do dentistry. Didn’t know anything about dentistry. My sister’s a year older than me, so she was going to apply for medicine.

We always knew that. And I’m middle child. So, parents like, okay, this one we’ve got to keep control of. And I got my GCSEs results and it just happened. A family friend who’s a dentist just called to see how I done. She said, oh, Kiran, hey, how have you done? And I said, oh, actually I did a lot better than I was predicted.

I ended up with all A’s and she was like, oh, why don’t you do dentistry? Great for females. You can work part time, you can travel. I thought, okay, great. This is what I’m going to do. And I remember I came home, and I told my parents a few days later, like, okay, I think I’m going to become a dentist.

I had to go to school. I had to change all my A level subjects because I’d applied for all like IT and business studies. It changed all sciences, even to the day Jaz, my dad, I saw him last week and I was talking to him, and he still says, I still can’t believe you’re a dentist because we thought you were going to do dentist IT.

This is like 11 years graduated now. So, and I guess the thing with me is once I want to do something, I will try and do everything I can in my power to make it happen. So I’m not someone who was born smart. I had to study. So, once I decided I wanted to do dentistry, most afternoons, evenings, I was studying, just studying, studying, studying.

And even through dental school, like had five years at Birmingham Dental University was fantastic. I really, really enjoyed it, but I was studying a lot because I know I’m not naturally smart, but I always said to myself, if you work hard and if you’re driven enough, it will happen. What’s there to stop you?

What are the barriers? And I think that goes for dentistry now as a profession, like if you want something enough and if you knock on enough people’s doors and if you do all the right things, eventually it will happen. It might not happen on day one. It might take like five years to get there, five months to get there, but it will happen because you just need to believe in yourself because no one’s going to do that for you. You can have a great support network and great family and friends, but at the end of the day, what goes on up here is what’s going to control you. And I thought-

[Jaz]
Two questions on the back of that, Kiran, if you don’t mind, just two questions on the back of that is number one reflection actually is that, yes, totally you have to carve your own path and you have to do it your way.

But then that thing about you feel as though that you had to work hard because maybe you didn’t think that your educational prowess maybe was that a level of, so you feel as though you had to compensate, right? But, how much of a hard each individual works, the results, the marks that you get at dental school, has it been your experience and observation that there is zero correlation between how well you do at dental school and then what ends up being after you qualify?

[Kiran]
Oh yeah, definitely. I mean, there were some exams I was just passing, like 51, 52%. But that doesn’t matter, because it was a pass, right? That’s all that matters. It’s like a tick box exercise. Get the GCSEs to do A levels. Tick. Get the A levels to get into dentistry. Tick. Get your degree in dentistry to get a job. Tick.

Because now, no one is ever going to ask you, what did you get at your, what did you pass with, or anything like that. And I think people focus too much sometimes on the, like, educational side and maybe not so more on the soft build, like communication.

[Jaz]
But emotional intelligence.

[Kiran]
Talking to people. Exactly, yeah. Emotional intelligence.

[Jaz]
And I wanted to mention that Kiran, is because students listen and I just, like, it’s a weird one. It’s a double-edged sword because I want them to work hard at school. I want them to do the best they can. But I don’t want them to think that when it, you know, if they don’t get like 95% and then there’s people around them getting like 80s and 90s and they’re feeling like, oh my God, when I do my 54 here, like don’t think for a second that that’s going to determine your success after dental school.

That’s the message I want to send out. And I’m glad you agree with that. I’m glad you were living an example of that. And the other thing is that, that family friend dentist that called you when you got your results, she sold you a dream, the dream that she told you was a dentist is great for females. You can work part times, go travel. Are you working part time? Are you traveling? Do you think this prophecy came true?

[Kiran]
Yeah, I would, now that I’m in some night practices, I’ve got stability. It happened, like what she said, it’s exactly what she said it would be. Like, so this is my, everyone has their reason why they work hard, why they go to work and everything.

So, for my twenties, it was to travel. Like I’ve been very, very fortunate. I was brought up traveling with my parents and after I graduated, always once or twice a year, I’d always go somewhere. I’ve seen like all the wonders of the world. I’ve climbed the top of Mount Kilimanjaro, like I’ve done a lot of backpacking holidays.

So, for me, that’s fulfilled. That point is fulfilled. And even with the part time, it’s very, very difficult because in dentistry, like you can work as much as you want or as little as you want. And sometimes there’s other external pressures, which might say, okay, you need to work a little bit more. So, you might go get that five day a week job, six day a week job.

I’ve noticed when I’ve done that in the past, I end up not liking work. I get really tired, I get frustrated because you’re constantly working, you’re constantly, you’re mentally always thinking on the dough, like when you’re working as a dentist, there’s not one point where you think, oh, I can just sit here and relax.

You’re always having to think. And so I think a lot of what time, what happens is, especially when you’re early graduating, is you do those jobs five, six days a week because you think that’s what you should do. And you actually end up more stressed, more burnt out, just feeling tired. And then you don’t like the job, it becomes disinteresting.

Whereas if you can go to three or four days a week, I think it gives you, you spend that one day a week just doing something non clinical, just something you like. Whatever it is, like you were saying, you enjoy your long drive for the podcasting. Since COVID, I’ve actually really enjoyed walking.

Because it gives you the time to listen to my podcast. So, like on a Wednesday, it’s my day off. So, I’ll go pilates in the morning. Then after lunch, I’ll go for a little walk, just listen to my podcast. And it’s those little things that help you enjoy your every day-to-day profession. And so, I’d always say to younger dentists, don’t do five days a week.

[Jaz]
I agree. Don’t do five days. Don’t do six. I agree that. But on the flip side, playing devil’s advocate here, you need to get the reps in. And so, I think sometimes, while you’re young, child free, when you have that energy and you’re like a sponge, you’re learning, sometimes it’s more difficult to do it in your thirties, forties and fifties, but if you’re in your twenties and early thirties, and to be able to do it like that, then it’s maybe okay. As long as you feel as though you can manage it, right? It’s like individual how they manage it because then they get their reps in, they get their 10, 000 hours in and then they’re able to position where they’re carefully able to then pick, have more power to pick, okay, which days can I do? How can I consolidate my time? Do you think there’s an argument there to be had?

[Kiran]
Oh, definitely. I would probably say the first 10 years after you graduate are the most important because that’s when you’ll, like you said, most people are child free, you might not have any dependence on you, you may not even be married, so life is all about you, what you want to do.

And if in those first 10 years you can meet the right people, maybe go on the right courses, if you want to specialize, do that within the first 10 years. Yeah, like you need to put the hours in, right? Without you putting the hours in, you’re not going to be able to get to that point in your mid-thirties or forties where you can work those left hours.

So, if like anything, anything which you learn new, that’s new to you, you’re always going to have to put the hours in. But then you’re younger, you don’t have back problems, you don’t have neck problems, you don’t have like other things going on in life. So yeah, definitely the first 10 years, put the effort in, try and figure out your future, what you want to, like, where you see yourself and then how you need to work backwards from there.

So whether, if you want to become a perio specialist, I think, great, how do you become a specialist? Who do you need to talk to? Which university do you want to apply? How much is it going to cost? And then you sort of work backwards from there. And you put everything in line so that you can get to that path. But yeah, I mean, hard work is always going to win over anything else. Hard work, determination, that’s always going to win over anything else. If you can believe it, and if you work hard for it, it will happen.

[Jaz]
Well, you’re in a situation now where you are working a bit more part time and you’re able to travel, which is what you are promised. The prophecy was promised and you’re living now, which is great, but it doesn’t come by accident. You had to work at it. And so what we’re going to unpack today is what were the struggles you had? How many frogs did you have to kiss before you found the prince charming positions, if you’d like, as I like to say on the podcast.

But one thing I remember is I was in like, third- or fourth-year dental school. And I picked up like this magazine that you might’ve heard me say this podcast is probably the second or third time mentioning over the hundreds of episodes in the last five, six years. I saw this fifth year dentist.

She was like, it was under her like a dental ball, like, leaving ball, right? It was like, I am really excited to qualify. And I love the fact that I’ll be able to go to work. And come back and I can switch off because dentistry is done when I come home. And she said that, and I was like, Oh, that’s interesting.

Yeah. It’s a good way to think about it. You can’t be in someone’s mouth when you’re at home. Therefore, when you come home, it’s off. That was the biggest lie ever. That was for me the biggest lie ever, because how can you be a comprehensive dentist? If you’re not constantly looking at your clinchecks, you look at the STL files, you’re speaking to your technician.

You’re writing letters to your patients, you are really just sometimes sit down and thinking, hmm, how can I solve this patient’s problem? And then communicating that to them? Do you find that as well?

[Kiran]
Oh, yeah, definitely. And if you think maybe like 20 years ago, where they were clear aligners is not a big thing. FGL files didn’t exist. It was all analog. You could probably argue at that point, most dentists could just go home and switch off. And especially if you’re in a practice where patients aren’t used to you sending them letters or you’re sending them loom videos or anything. You could probably say that actually, yeah, and even now, if you just work as a general dentist, you don’t do any, like, ortho, you don’t do any complex cases, just your basic dentistry.

Potentially, once you’re confident with your level that you’re applying clinically. That is something that you could all be, actually, if you do want that lifestyle, it is there for you. But most people now, I think, especially younger dentists, because they’re seeing social media, they’re seeing all these different new ways of doing dentistry, and they probably think that’s what they have to do.

I think there’s two arguments in there. You can just be the general dentist to just general dentistry and there’s nothing wrong with that. In fact, those people probably have the more chilled lifestyle because they don’t need to write their own.

[Jaz]
They are some of the happiest dentists I meet. They work three days a week, they have their other hobbies and interests. They do mostly single tooth dentistry and that’s okay. The crown here, the filling here, a couple of restorations here, extractions, a good service to their patients. They have a real good relationship with their patients.

They make good money. They could do more if they’re more comprehensive, but they’re happy, right? They’re happy in life. And there is something to be said about that. Please don’t think there’s podcasts. And what we’re going to saying is always have to constantly grind and constantly have to be doing full mouth rehabs.

That is so far from the truth guys. And I’m so glad you mentioned this, that it’s totally okay to, as long as you pick it, because the worst thing to be is you want it to be. The comprehensive dentist, you want to treat tooth wear cases, you wanted to have more fun in whatever that means for you, but you are stuck or you feel like you’re in these shackles, right? And so that will be living a lie. But if you truly wanted that, you know what? I want a more chilled pace of work and I’m happy with that. Then you are living the dream.

[Kiran]
Exactly. So that’s for me. It comes down to you as an individual. And in those first 10 years, if you just think, okay, I actually just want to be a general dentist, then just do what you need to, to become a really good general dentist.

[Jaz]
The toughest gig in the world, by the way. Just a general dentist. It’s like saying just a housewife. Like it’s tough. It’s toughest gig in the world, right? It is one of those that, you have to be mom and housekeeper, that kind of stuff. So it’s nothing like, yeah, I know what you mean, but totally like what we do is the toughest gig.

Are you still general, like in sense, like here in like, do you do everything? I’d love to know before we go deeper into your choreological journey, do you do everything? Because there’s a concept I’m working with called niche kebab and niche kebab means for everything, every new skill that you pick up. What are you going to give up? Right? And so when you tell me your journey, just tell me more about, did you start to niche? And did that mean that you were giving up certain procedures?

[Kiran]
No, so I am a general dentist. So if you ask me, what was your specialty? I don’t have one. I am actually a general dentist. And part of my growth was, all I wanted to do was to become really good at general dentistry. Like, I wanted to do a really good class 2 posterior filling. For some people they’ll be like, oh that’s so easy, but for me it was a challenge, right? Like, to do it nicely, put your rubber dam on, do your sectional matrices, etc, etc.

It takes time to gain that skill. And even the other day I was reflecting, it used to take maybe like an hour and, like, maybe 5 years ago, an hour and 20 minutes to do a class 2 filling. And now it takes 45 minutes, so, but for me, that’s the win because I’ve always wanted to do it, follow the right steps, but I’m getting quicker at it, and then, so if you say to me, what are you, so I’m a general dentist, yes, I do a little bit of ortho, not loads, yes, I do a bit of composite bonding, not loads, at the end of the day, I don’t want the stress of constantly doing clinchecks, constantly writing letters, like, I got masters in restorative dentistry, so yeah, there are times where I will do full mouth rehab, tooth wear cases, but also, I’m not catering them.

I’m not looking for them. If the patient walks in and they need that, fantastic. If they just need general dentistry, that’s okay. And I wouldn’t say I’m a single tooth dentist. I do look at the mouth as the whole. But I’m quite happy with that because it allows me to live the life that I want to.

It means I’m not stressed out all the time after work. I’m not chasing up labs with anything like that. And also, I think there’s a lot to be said for being a general dentist. Like, but there’s still things I can’t do very well. Like, I find some extractions really difficult. If it’s like root filled and brittle.

And there was a period of time where I would give it a go. I’d try and get better and better. And it makes you realise, hey, you’re just not good at this. So, do the extractions you can. And if it’s complicated, just refer them. Like, what’s the big deal? Like, there’s someone who’s better than you.

The patient is going to have a better experience. The dentist who’s doing it is going to enjoy doing it. But also for me, that stress of like spending like 45 minutes trying to take out a tooth that doesn’t come out. I could be doing a Class 2 filling, which is what I know I’m good at. Same again, the root canals, like primary root canals, if they’re quite straightforward, I’m happy to do.

But equally, there’s endodontists in the practices who love that. That’s what all they do, day in and day out. So, there was a time where I worked in one practice and my principal loved root canal. And so I would take on more challenging cases because he was there helping me. Like if something went wrong, he would pop in and be, Oh, okay, let me have, have a look and help you.

But also I just, it was stressful. We’re trying to take all these sand skaters. So what’s wrong in saying to someone, actually, you know what, there’s someone better than me in the practice. They only charge a little bit more. Go and see them. And you’re still going to come back to me for the crown anyway. So, I’m a general dentist.

[Jaz]
And I love that. But two reflections there. One is cherry picking. Like there’s so much crap you have to deal with as general dentist and such a difficult job. Therefore, one of the good things going for us is the ability to cherry pick to pick the low hanging fruit, okay, and feed the specialist because they need to eat as well.

Right. And so, sometimes it’s not the procedure. Sometimes it’s the patient. And specialists hate this, specialist hate it when they hear this, right? Sometimes it’s not the procedure. Sometimes it’s the patient that that’s being referred. And that’s why you specialists, you have to deal with the tough patients and the tough procedures.

That’s okay. Suck it up by the cup. That’s what you picked. So that’s fine. And there’s a beauty in just making peace with the fact that, okay, this is all the things I do. These are things I will do to a certain complexity and I’ll refer that. But the other thing is like, it’s good to do some things that are a little bit tricky now and again.

And I like what you have is very similar to what I have whereby if a comprehensive care patient walks in, right. And I love that, but I don’t want my diary like full of that. Cause sometimes it’s really nice with not getting enough sleep, sometimes with the kids and everything that happens around the scenes, you go in.

And you’ve got, even though my receptionist know I hate the checkup days, checkup days, right? It’s a stable list of patients. It’s a nice to catch up with my patients. It’s very sweet to just learn about this. One of the beautiful things about being a dentist compared to a GP is that relationship that you can build with your patient.

And so sometimes the checkup day, some basic dentistry that I can literally do with my eyes closed. But it’s okay because now there’s other things that could be taking my energy and my time. Whereas when that comprehensive care patient comes in and that excites you, then that keeps you going basically.

But as Ian Buckle taught me many years ago in the Dawson Academy, do you really want your list full of three or four comprehensive care patients a week? Like literally the amount of time you’d have to spend out of clinic and actually thinking time and how many things that could go wrong is often something that we think we’d like the idea of that. But it’s something that actually can go quite south very quickly.

[Kiran]
Yeah, I would 100% agree, like, recently at work I’ve had probably four comprehensive patients that I’ve walked in for just checkups. And I’ve actually had to say to them, look, I actually need to take some time, I need to think about this, and I have to write you a treatment plan letter because it’s not a straightforward treatment.

But that takes time, like, that might take an hour to two hours of my personal time to write out. And then you have to link the treatment with all the specialists. Okay, you need some root canals redone, go to the specialist and come and see me. I’ll prepare the teeth for crowns, or you need implants, you need ortho, you need tooth wear.

And there’s nothing wrong with that. Like, I really enjoy it. But I would not want to be doing that every week. Like, maybe once or twice a month. Amazing. But the rest of the time, it’s like you say, you want to just go in, do good dentistry, make your life as easy as possible, and refer when you need to.

[Jaz]
Lovely. Well, I’m loving the direction it’s gone already. So Kiran, let’s actually go with your journey, right? So you’re at Birmingham, you had to work really hard. You’re out in the real world now. You had these visions and ideas of way you wanted to be, i. e. in the direction you are in now, but was it a smooth journey? Did you have any challenges? How did you navigate your first few years and just share your journey with us?

[Kiran]
Yes, I think the first few years when you graduate, life can be a little bit different to how you pictured. So I did my FD training in a practice in Slough and it was a fantastic experience because you saw so many patients, they needed so many different things.

And it was great. And then the year after that, I applied for more training because I thought, maybe I’m not at that level where I think I can go into practice. So I got another training job and that used to be 140 mile commute every day around Frick from where I live.

[Jaz]
How long would that take? Like the whole day?

[Kiran]
I would start work at 8 and I’d leave at 6. 40 and I’d get there like 10 to 8. But the beauty of all, there was no traffic at that time. So it’d be straight down the M40, literally 50 miles down the M40 and 10 miles here and there. And same again, that, my trainer there was a endodontist. So I had a trainer who was an endodontist and a regular SD1 trainer.

And so I learned more about endo that year. So it got me used to doing a bit more endo with hand files and everything, but a little bit like yourself, I actually wanted to move abroad. So when I was in sort of fourth, fifth year of university, my dream at that point was to move to Australia. And so after this second year of training, I actually got a job out in Australia in Queensland, but it wasn’t in any of the cities.

It was quite far away. It was eight hours north of Brisbane by car. So I got a sponsored visa and in summer of 2015, I flew out to Australia by myself. And I started working out there in private practice and it was nice. There was like a group of expert dentists who were all from the UK who were there. It was a lot slower pace dentistry.

The weather was good. And after six months after setting there, what I realized was that, okay, I actually want to get better at dentistry because at that time, I didn’t think I was very good. And I would have to fly everywhere for all the courses. So, just to go for a course for a weekend, you’d have to fly down to Brisbane or fly down to Sydney.

And then you spend a couple of days there, then I’d come back and then you’d have to implement it. And also where I was located, because it was so in the outback, I was 25 at the time, and I was thinking, this is not the place to be for a 25 year old, like, especially where I live now, it’s so close to London, it’s so close to the airport and everything.

So after a year, I was really missing home. I got quite homesick. And my sister, she nailed it on the head for me. She was like, you used to commute 140 miles a day and you were happy. As you know, you commute 10 minutes a day and you’re not happy. And she said, just come home. She’s like, what’s wrong with coming home?

And obviously in my head, I told myself, I’m going to Australia. I’m living there for the foreseeable future. And then she was like, why don’t you just come out? And I said, no, but I had this vision, I wanted to stay out here forever. And she said, it’s okay, you might have opportunities.

And you might think, this is how I want life to be, but sometimes it doesn’t happen. So, when I was out there, there was a job going on the BDJ, and I skyped interviewed for it. And it was a maternity position, but it was close to home. So I thought, actually, let me come home for a bit, do this job, see how I feel.

[Jaz]
Can I pause you there and ask about Australia a little bit?

[Kiran]
Yeah, yeah, of course you can.

[Jaz]
Did you see any giant spiders? I just really want to know, did you see any big spiders?

[Kiran]
I saw some big spiders and only saw one snake when I was out there.

[Jaz]
Okay, had to get that out of my system because when people say outback and that’s what you think. But okay, so what did you learn? What did Australia, because for me, Singapore, when I went to Singapore, it was my first taste of private practice and it gave me confidence to just go for it. Go for it. Now take that leap of faith. Made me brave. Made me just charge fee per item, which wasn’t used to here in the UK.

And so, it gave me that sort of communication skill. I also learned how to remove wisdom teeth when I was in Singapore. Cause if you weren’t removing wisdom teeth, the dentistry didn’t pay well in Singapore. So I had to learn to be able to pay the bills. And I was like, Oh, wow, I actually quite enjoy this.

Quite good. So that was that. And then just having the time, cause it’s a slower pace, take a lot more photos. Be more comprehensive, do lots of online courses while I was there as well, and just courses around Singapore. So that’s what I gained. How did you find your year in Australia? How did you grow?

[Kiran]
So I found that obviously with private dentistry, the patients know what they’re paying for. So never had to have that difficult conversation. Whereas maybe the end test, you had the options of private dentistry. So that was quite nice. I also found that it was a lot more care was given to the patient.

So when I first started, I observed one of the lead dentists. Just doing a checkup and a hygiene appointment for a patient. And they went all the way to the extent they fluffed every single tooth for the patient at the end of their hygiene. And I was like, wow, I’ve never seen that before. The money isn’t a matter.

It was all about the patient, giving them the good quality dentistry. And it really made you slow down, but also it sort of made me realize actually I do like dentistry now I’ve had time to slow down. And I do want to do further education, whereas sometimes if you’re in a really busy, busy practice and you’re not getting time to think, you’re just in the daily grind, you kind of lose sight and focus of what you want.

But I also realized when you do work in private practice, you don’t have that influx of patients, you know, the NHS patients coming in and out, you really have to work. And that takes time. That takes a lot of time. And recently at the practice I’m at now, I’ve been building a list for a couple of years and it takes, it’s a completely different skill to walking into a practice where you have a list of patients to walking into a practice where you don’t have a list of patients.

And actually your biggest skill at that point or the biggest thing you need to work on is communication. Because these new patients are coming in and they’re probably thinking, well, why should I come and see you? And so the biggest skill is communication, your emotional intelligence. It’s soft skills, it comes back all to that.

Because what I realized the time has gone on, like, even though I got really good at my class 2 composite. My patients don’t care how my class 2 composite look, that’s for me. All they care about is they’re going to not be in any pain, they’re going to have a good experience, and that they’re not going to be having any issues after no sensitivity or anything like that.

So it’s kind of like, you’re on this sort of like curve where you’re going up and then something will happen and you’ll be like, oh actually, the patient doesn’t even care about that. Like, all they care about is one or two things. And as long as I can do that from then, everything else is just for myself.

There’s some of them that, you’ve got to go through that to realize. That pressure that you’re putting on yourself is maybe not necessarily needed. But yeah, Australia was great because it opened up private dentistry and then I Skyped for an interview here, which is in a private practice. So I came back and just started doing that a couple of days a week. And my principal at the time, he did implants and root calves. That was his sort of specialty or area of interest.

[Jaz]
The ying and the yang.

[Kiran]
Exactly. And so that was really nice because any time I struggled with root canals, he would always come in and he’d help me out. He’d be like, oh, look, the canal’s here. Or actually, yeah, don’t worry. And I think I was reading on dentists, the dentist the other day, like an associate had posted, I’ve perforated, and my patient’s really upset with me. Like, how do I deal with the situation? But I think, same again, that comes down to communication, right? If you tell your patient at the beginning, look, I’m going to do this root canal for you.

I’m going to try my very, very best. But sometimes complications do happen. Like, for example, I may not find the canal. Sometimes the morphology is different. I might go in the wrong direction, cause you a little perforation. So then when it does happen, you don’t need to make a big deal out of it. You’ll be like, oh, hey, remember I told you.

I, of perforations. Well, there’s one there. I fixed it for you. But actually, this root canal is more difficult than I would initially anticipated. So why don’t we get you in to see the specialist? There’s no charge from me today and they’ll see you and they’ve got a microscope, and they can deal with it.

And even this year, like earlier this year, I couldn’t find, one of my long-standing patients and I couldn’t find a canal on the tooth. And I said to him, look, I told him before, look, these are some of the risks. And then I tried looking for, I couldn’t find it. And I thought, you know what? Why spend another half an hour on me drilling like here, there, everywhere, trying to find this canal?

Just stop, just temporize it and just tell her, look, I couldn’t find the canal, but I’m going to get you booked in with one of the specialists. There’s no charge for me today. And then got him booked in two weeks later. While he was having the treatment, I popped in just to say, oh, hey, how’s it going? And then the end of this was like, oh, Kiran, look, I found the canal.

You were so close. You just had to go a little bit further and had a look. And then, great. They did the root canal. I put the crown on top. Patient was happy. So I think it’s all about just communication, which is the skills, which are probably now is becoming more apparent to dentists, but historically in like the first, probably seven, eight years of my career, I didn’t think anything about communication, same again.

And it was another principal who made me realize it’s all about communication. And so when we talk about mentors, I think I’ve just been very lucky. I’ve just, the practices I’ve worked in, the principals have ended up being mentors. But I think if you’re not in that situation, then what you sort of need to do is-

[Jaz]
Which I think most people are not in that situation, Kiran. People message me saying, oh, I was promised this job and I thought my principal would be around, but the principal’s just so busy working on the business and not in the business, the other way around people working in the business, not on the business. And then sometimes dentists become entrepreneurs and they’re trying to run the clinic and multiple clinics.

And therefore they don’t have time to mentor someone. What you had was a wonderful arrangement that someone can just pop in or you could pop into that surgery and get some help. That’s a real wonderful thing. But I think it’s becoming more and more scarce, especially with dentists working part time and limited surgeries. Oh, I work on a Monday. Therefore, you work on Tuesday. Therefore, we can’t work at the same time. So where does one get mentorship? You think?

Interjection:
Hey guys, just Jaz interfering very timely. I just ask, where do you find mentors? Well, nowadays we have Intaglio. Intaglio is a company that I’ve co-founded and it is here to solve the mentorship crisis. I want those who want to mentor to have access to mentees. And all those hundreds and thousands of dentists who want mentors, who are desperate because they feel isolated, they feel alone, they need help, they need to solve a problem, they want to get guidance on their cases. This is exactly why we set up Intaglio.

Intaglio means the inner side of a crown or denture. It also sounds like a pasta, which is why we went for the name. And the logo is a door because we’re opening doors. Imagine being able to book one hour or a 10-hour package with a mentor and maybe once a week or once a month or just a one-off session.

Show them that bridge design that you’re really struggling with, or that ClinCheck or that CBCT that you just want a second pair of eyes on. The mentor gets fairly remunerated and you as a mentee get dedicated time rather than a rushed voice message on Instagram telling you what to do. There’s also a mentorship certificate that you get with the reflection.

So in the future to our regulator, we can show that we are getting mentorship for certain disciplines. If you are interested in either being a mentor or a mentee or both, check out intagliomentoring.com. That’s intagliomentoring.com. I’ll put the link in the blog. Let’s get back to the main episode.

[Kiran]
So I think now, like you said, it’s become more scarce that I think you kind of have to think your job is your job. And that’s sort of your daily grind and if you can’t find the membership there. Then you need to do something else, which might help you find the mentorship. So it might be like, when I came back from Australia, I struggled with extractions as well.

So, when I was in my VT, there was an oral surgeon who came from the local hospital to give us a call, like a one day course. Then I just contacted him. I said, hey, look, I’m back from Australia. Do you mind if I come to the hospital one day a month just to observe? And he was like, yeah, of course. He was like, come, come any time.

It’s like you’re more than welcome. So if there is someone who you think, oh. They’re actually doing the sort of dentistry that I want to do, and they have no job opportunities available, but actually they seem like a nice person. This is awesome, can I just come and interview one day a week? Just to see what you’re doing, whether it’s implant, root canal, communication, anything, because surely that’s better than you just sitting in your practice every day, and you’re not getting the fulfillment that you need.

So even now, one day a month at my ortho practice, the principal will come in and he’ll do all the new patient cons. And I said to him, I’m just going to sit there with you one day a month, so I’m taking a day out of my diary one month, just to see how he talks to people, just to see how he communicates, what is he doing different, that maybe I can choose, but that’s my choice, because I want to get better in that, right?

So I think that’s what I’d say to young dentists, find someone, and who can maybe give you one day a month, it might mean you have to reduce your days, or you might have to change your diary or something, but if that’s really what you want to do, then, do it, basically, because no one’s going to come knocking on your door.

You’ve got to knock on other people’s doors. It’s kind of like, I always give the analogy like, let’s say you open a business, you open a gardening business. Okay, so you make all your leaflet, you do your website and everything. But unless you physically go around and maybe knock on every person’s door on your street and say, Hey, I’m the new gardener and this is what I do. Who’s going to give you the time of day? So you have to put that effort in.

[Jaz]
100% and I think the way you learn through shadowing is so powerful and it’s something I’m really emphasizing more and more as well because the most powerful learning experience I had were either I was shadowing someone or I was rescued by someone where someone was able to physically come and help me clinically and so people do like these diploma courses where once a month they will fly somewhere and do a day of restorative or do a day of oral surgery, whatever.

So lots of lots of diplomas out there now, right? And think of it as your own diploma, whereby you take a one day out to shadow someone. And if you just do that, that is just as meaningful, if not more valuable then, because you get to actually see the implementation of the knowledge that you learn, the courses, you don’t just get the knowledge you see, actually see the implementation, you see the communication.

So if anyone’s stuck saying, ah, I don’t know which course to do. This is another course you can create. And often it’s a secret. It can be free. Often it can be free because there’s so many lovely people out there that are willing to say, you know what, if you want to shadow me for 12 times in a year on this, like once a month, I’m happy.

You don’t have to pay me anything yet. Some people will charge and that’s okay. That’s worth it too. But if it’s free. Wow. And if even if it’s charged, it’s still worth it because to be able to shadow, you learn so much. So let’s say, let’s go back to the point where you came back, you’re working just two days a week at that point, back from Australia. Did you then extend that to more days? And how’d you navigate working in multiple clinics? Tell me more about that.

[Kiran]
So yeah, I was there two days a week and I was at a NHS practice two days a week. And then after this maternity cover, the principal said, okay, look, we’re going to actually build another surgery. We’re going to keep you on. So I thought, okay, great. So then I pushed up to four days a week and it was nice. The one thing my principal said to me quite early on is he’s like, Kiran, you need to have a niche or something that you’re good at, whatever it is, he was like, you choose what you want it to be.

But that’s the one thing that people will know you for and they will come to you for it. So I thought, okay, so I was like, what can I do? What can I do? I don’t know. I was like, should I do MSC in Root Canal? But I was like, I don’t love Root Canal. I was like, should I go do oral surgery? I don’t love oral surgery.

So I just thought, you know what, I’ll just do a master’s in restorative dentistry. And I’ll just continue down this restorative because that’s what I like, right? It’s like, I just like the steps. It’s all about the clinical skills, but it’s very repetitive as well. So once you get very good at it, you can do things in a short amount of time, but to a very high standard, so.

I did my four years part time master’s at UCL Eastman and same again, the benefit of working in this practice was the principal had also done a master’s from UCL Eastman as well. She was very supportive. So anytime I had cases, I said, Oh guys, I need to find like a resin bonded bridge case. So then people would have a look, be like, okay Kiran, we’ve got this patient, great, okay, the patient comes see me, I’ll take photos, document it.

But it was very nice to have that support there. And I know that’s not available, again, for all people, you know. A lot of people don’t get that with their principals. But if, let’s say, that’s the sort of master’s you want to do. Maybe have a look in your local area, see if someone has done a master’s from the same university and maybe they might be able to offer you a job one day a week or something like that.

Or even like we’re saying, get the mentorship from them so that you can discuss cases with them and everything like that. So I did that four years part time while working in this one practice and it essentially finished in 2020.

[Jaz]
How did you find that? I mean, I’ve got a devil’s advocate to play again with a master’s, we’ll talk about that in a second. But how did you balance working four days in clinic? Plus the masters. Was that a difficult time in your career?

[Kiran]
Yeah. I mean, it was tough. Like most evenings I would come home and I’d be basically working upstairs. The benefits I had was I was living at home with my parents. So they would feel like Molly cuddling me and making food and doing everything for me. Which was really, really nice. I’ll always be thankful to them for that and everything else. But it is tough, but it’s also just a short period of your life, right? So you’ve got to give to get, but there’s no way I would be where I am today if I hadn’t sacrificed that time. Okay. And I still traveled.

Like I still went on holiday because you still got the summer holidays and the Christmas holidays. So I still did what made me happy. And it was the sacrifice and there was a lot of evenings or weekends which I missed away to my friend and say, I can’t, I’m studying, but I don’t regret it because it helped me get to where I am today.

[Jaz]
Sorry, different people do masters for different reasons, right? And my bone to pick with masters, being married to someone with an MSc in paediatric dentistry, she got a distinction, she did very well at UCL, she did her Paeds, right? And so she did brilliantly and I saw how much effort she put in. And she was learning about apexification and MTA and that kind of stuff and this treatment and that treatment modality and all sorts of niche things in paediatric dentistry.

Well, that’s him. How many of these procedures have you actually done? Oh yeah, no, we haven’t done any. And so my bone to pick with MSC is not necessarily your MSC and you can shed some light on that, but a lot of MSCs that implant MSCs, right? How many implants do you actually place? Oh, well actually I wrote a thesis, but either you play zero implants or you only placed a few implants.

And that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do the MSC because it gives you great grounding, allow you to critique the research. And some people just need like all the evidence and critique it to really feel confident. Okay, now I know I’m doing now. I can unleash myself to the world. So what was your expectation of the MSC? Did it meet your expectation? Do you perhaps have any regrets of the Masters and perhaps how much hands on exposure you may or may not get?

[Kiran]
Yeah. So I think when, and I completely get what you’re saying about the other masters. I think with the restorative masters, because it’s based at least the first two years on traditional general dentistry, doing your bridges, your crown preps, your fillings.

I think you can’t go wrong with that. But equally, there are also one year courses now where you can probably learn exactly the same thing. So you don’t necessarily need to do a master’s, maybe just a one year like solid foundation restorative course. You could probably gain exactly what you wanted from it.

The third year from my master’s actually did a lot of tooth wear and that’s something I really enjoy doing. So I do a few tooth wear cases, maybe one a month or something like that, but that’s something I really enjoyed. So for me, I actually benefited from that, but that’s not to say they’re not great tooth wear courses out there as well.

And even though we had a tooth wear module on the MSC, I still went and did some tooth wear courses after. So I think if you’re going to go down the master’s route, you need to be very picky about why you’re doing that master’s. And that’s why I just chose the general one. I was like, it’s a general masters.

[Jaz]
Why did you do a master’s and not go for the one of those short courses that assemble all sorts in a year or Kostas’ injection molding course probably wasn’t around back then, basically. Like, why did you choose to go for it? And there’s lots of benefits of going for a structured pathway, like a master’s.

I see that you get letters at the end. Everything is like tried and tested, all the access to papers. I appreciate that, but were you tempted? Were you in your mind thinking, hmm, should I spend this money and time doing the master’s? Or should I just do a year long course? Did that debate happen inside your head? Cause a lot of people have that debate and they present it to me.

[Kiran]
Yeah, I think at that time, because my principal had done a master’s from UCL Eastman, I saw how fantastic his work was and how he worked. I think for me, it was a no brainer. I think it was just like you’ve got to do a master’s and that’s what it was.

It was plain and simple. And also at that time, there wasn’t as many yearlong courses. I think now there’s a lot more yearlong courses to choose from. And I think the third thing was I’ve always wanted to teach. And I thought at the time, if I had a master’s, it would just make me more representable or maybe help with the teaching.

So that was another sort of reason why I was like, no, I’m going to do the master. I’m going to do the full masters, not just drop out after the diploma or certificate, because I wanted to teach. And I thought maybe this will help me as well. Whether it has or hasn’t is very difficult to say, but I guess, things happen for a reason.

So on the final year of my MSc, it started January, 2020. So it was just before COVID happened. And we had one or two days of lectures. My now principal at my practice, he was actually in the year above me. But he took a year out because, for whatever reason, and he dropped down into my year. So we were just talking and we were talking and I was like, Oh, where do you work?

He was like, oh, I work in Reading. I was like, oh, I live in Reading. And then that was it. We saw each other maybe over two months with everyone else. And then after that, I never saw him again because it went into COVID. But when the job came up at his practice, he messaged me saying, hey Kiran, there’s a job going, do you want it?

And I honestly think I would have never got that job if I hadn’t done the masters, been there on that exact day to meet my principal for them to him say, you know, Kiran, I’ve put in a good word for you, just apply, come for the job. So everything happens for a reason, right?

[Jaz]
I think you’re totally right. It helps you to network as well and it gets you out. It’s like you said, it’s a small part of your career. So I think the main lesson that probably you can both agree on, I like the fact that you’re very open to the fact that you could have just done a long alternative course rather than MSC. And I really appreciate you saying that after having done MSC.

Sometimes people do something. No, no, no, surely MSC. You’re very open. You’re happy to admit that actually there was alternative, other brands are available, et cetera, et cetera. But you can’t deny the fact that as long as you have some sort of focus, as long as you’re doing some sort of further education, because if you’re not there, either in your confidence or your knowledge where you want to be, then you need to take action.

And what you did was that. So this could have been any course, but you channel your energy and time into something and something good came of it. So the worst thing you can do is sit still and just sit on the fence about what should I do next? How can I bet myself as long as someone takes action and speaks to enough people to think that, okay, yes, this is the right thing for me.

And whether it’s not the right thing, they always say our choice is a half chance, right? If your principal did not have a master’s and maybe your principal had done some courses and say, oh yeah, do these courses, you’d be fine. Maybe you would have gone down that path. Who knows, but as long as you do something and you own it and whatever you do, you put your heart and soul into it, which I’m sure you did. Then you come out the other side smiling and you’ll have a good network and a good experience.

[Kiran]
Yeah, a hundred percent agree. Like, yeah, I think the people around you may help make decisions because if there’s someone you really look up to and they’re fantastic at perio, you might be like, Oh, I think I’ll do perio a bit more.

So I think that definitely helps, but like you, you hit the nail on the head. Essentially, whatever you do, put your whole heart into it, just focus, knuckle down, get what you need. It’s only for a few years of your life, it’s not forever. And then after that, things will get easier.

[Jaz]
I just want to just home in on your orthodontic position that you said, right? So you are working in a clinic whereby it’s a specialist orthodontic clinic, but you do the restorative of that clinic. So like, spacing, peg laterals, that kind of stuff. That’s a really cool gig to have, right? Someone who is into restorative like you, you get to do the bonding, and these are patients who’ve had the pre restorative ortho.

This is like the dream scenario, right? You don’t get the case where you’re having to convince the person to have ortho so you can do more predictable bonding. You’re literally getting everything set up. So you’re minimizing your occlusal risk. You’re literally having a good baseline. Tell us more about this position and then how did you find or get this position?

[Kiran]
So this division, it’s quite a unique one, which is why I accepted the job role. Because it was like you said, most people get general dental roles. And this one, this opportunity came to me and we’ll go through how it came to me in a moment, but I thought it’s just too good to say no to. Like, the opportunity is too good and the dentistry I do there is completely different to the dentistry I do in my regular practice because my regular practice is just the GDP, regular exam, routine recalls, whereas in the old practice I’m there for a specific reason and that is you could call it cosmetic, aesthetic, restorative side.

So, this practice essentially gets a lot of self-referral. And what they were doing previously is they would turn the patient away. They said, Oh, sorry, you’re not dentally fit. Go find your own dentist and then come back for the ortho because we don’t have anyone here who can do it. And then it got bought out by one of my previous principals.

And he said, no, we need someone in here to actually look after these patients so that we can get them dentally fit and then they can go off and see the orthodontist. But then equally the orthodontist will then be finishing off cases and they will say, okay, great. Like your peg latches in the right place.

Here’s your Essix retainer. Now go back to your regular dentist and let them do the bonding. And then you can come back here, and we’ll give you a new Essix retainer. But sometimes the patients wouldn’t come back, sometimes the dentist’s skills were just not up to what they were hoping. And so now, we’ve got a room nurse system, we pop into each other’s rooms all the time, I’ll pop in and be like do you think that’s enough space?

I’ll be like, oh, can you like put a little bit more space just there? Or weekly if a patient has come in for a new patient consult and I’m thinking, hmm, is this like clear aligner treatment? Or is it fixed braced? And I’ll call the orthodontist and I’ll be like, what do you think about this case? And they’ll be like, oh, yeah, I think you can do it, Kiran.

Or actually, no, a bit more complex, send it over to me. So the denture I do there, it’s a lot of composite bonding. We’re sort of moving on to more ceramics now and veneers and everything. But it’s pushing me to get better in that area. And so one thing I do at the beginning of every year is I’ll write down on a piece of paper what I want to get back better at in my clinical profession and also my personal life.

And so for a long time, it was get better at posterior composite, like posterior composite. It always be there and root canals. It always be there. And then it got to a point where I was like, Oh, I’m actually like quite happy with how I’m doing. And the next thing was I can get better at anterior composite.

But it’s like you said, it’s like 10, 000 hours, unless you’re doing it regularly, you’re not going to get better at it. And so this thing and this practice is pushing me because someone’s always looking at my work. It’s not just me doing it. And then the patient goes, I’ve got an orthodontist going to be checking.

I’ve got one of the therapists who will be scanning and just checking. And I always say to them, if it’s not good, you tell me, we’ll get it fixed. But it’s a really unique position. Really, really enjoying it.

[Jaz]
Did you get headhunted basically for it then?

[Kiran]
So what happened was, it was a planned practice. And it was fantastic. It was very, very busy, but I was getting quite, I guess, tired, like mentally, because he was doing 15 minute checkups, 15 minute checkups. It’s just so busy, you didn’t have time to think. And I wasn’t really enjoying it at that point. So, I was just looking online one day and then this job had come up, which was like three miles down the road.

And essentially it was to work on referral from the principal dentist. So I was like, okay, cool. Like this is something different. Let’s go and try it. If it doesn’t work, I haven’t lost anything because I’m not leaving my regular job. They only want me there two days a month. So I started there and essentially what the principal would work a couple of days a week.

He would treatment plan the cases and anything he thought that I could do, he would refer into me. So when I would go and I’d just have a full day full of basic treatment and anything that was a bit more complex he’d keep for himself. So I went there. And this is where I have to give a big shout out to nurses because we had the same nurse.

So I remember the first day I went in and she said, okay, you’re going to do these clasps, like, you know, these buccal fillings. I thought, great. And she said, you’re going to use this instrument. I was like, well, what’s that instrument? And she’s like, don’t you know what it is? And I was like, no. And it was basically OptraSculpt.

And so she was like, and I was like, so how do I use this? And then she got her hand and she got a model. She said, okay, you’ve got to use it like this and you’ve got to brush it like that. And I want to give you some like brush and sculpt on the back of your glove. You’re going to do this. I thought, okay, great.

Like she’s basically told me what I need to do. And then the patient came in, we did the treatment. Then at the end, she was like, okay, Kiran, you did that good, but you could have improved here, here, and here. And I thought, okay, next time. I said, next time we’ll do that.

[Jaz]
Wow.

[Kiran]
Well, next time we did the, yeah. And this is what I mean.

[Jaz]
But some people can get really offended. Like I see posts all the time anonymously, whereby, Hey, I’m a dentist and I feel as though my nurse is undermining me. My assistant’s undermining me. You could have, if you wanted to, Kiran, interpret that like, Hey, who is she to tell me what to do, but I appreciate and I like the fact, maybe it’s the way that she did it, or maybe it was you being an open minded clinician, being growth mindset and being open to be like, you know what, I’m willing to learn. So do you think it could have been that you could have misinterpreted that or was her delivery, was her tact really good?

[Kiran]
So I think when you’re in this position, you have to think, who’s been qualified for longer in the dentistry profession, you or your nurse? And especially when you’re starting out, your nurse, they’ve worked with so many different dentists.

They’ve seen so many different things. They know what works and what doesn’t work. So sometimes, like, you just have to ask, even now, I still work with that same nurse, and we were doing a veneer prep case a few months ago and I said, okay, run me through what the boss does and she was like, okay, he does it like this, he does it like that.

And then on that day I said to the practice manager, please, can she be with me? I want her to be in the surgery, like assisting me. And she helped me out. She was like, oh, Kiran, like you’ve just missed this bit or like drop the margin a little bit, or even when we do composite bonding, I always say to my nurse, what does it look like?

How’s it looking from your side? Because from my side, it looks okay. And then both, all my nurses are trained now to actually tell me, oh, Kiran, you missed a bit, or it’s looking a bit high here. You need to polish that back. But I think with this nurse, she was quite like confident. She was like, I’m going to tell you how it’s done.

And at that time, I wasn’t the most confident dentist, so I kind of took it on board. But like, what you said with these anonymous posts and stuff, don’t feel afraid. These nurses have more like, they don’t have the clinical skill, but they’ve seen so many people do it. They know what works and what doesn’t.

And if you get on with them, and if they can teach you something, it’s like going on a course, and someone, I could have paid to go on a course for someone to teach me how to do that, but why would I when my nurse has seen it done a hundred times and she’s like Kiran this is how it’s done, come on I’ll help you.

If they’re willing to help you, like it’s like another mentor, right? Just because they’re a different job title to do doesn’t mean that you should see them any different. You’re a team, you work together. And I love it. Like, I really like working with this nurse and she’s now going to go on to become an orthodontist therapist. So I’m really, really happy for her that she’s excelling in her career and everything.

[Jaz]
And she deserves it. You can tell, like, this is not your average nurse, right? She is a go getter. She’s obviously very proactive and she’s not like a passer by looking at the clock waiting for lunchtime. She wants to have an active role and how wonderful that you had that experience. And how wonderful you were so nice about it to actually be receptive and willing to learn. Although, whereas other colleagues may be offended by that, I salute you. I think that’s wonderful.

[Kiran]
Yeah, exactly. And then she would learn stuff from me. And then she would go back and tell the principal and he’d be like, how’d you know that? And she’s like, oh, Kiran taught me. So it was like a two-way thing, like she was teaching me, but then I was teaching her, she really likes learning and then she was going back and teaching the principal.

And I think that’s when I started realizing, and even the principal and she was like, actually, you are very good at your posterior dentistry is just, you need to get that confidence now. And so that’s really where it started growing. I got the confidence. It was good to have that feedback because when you work on referral, essentially the principal is the responsible, right?

So if something goes wrong, they want to make sure that you’re looking after their patients, you’re treating them well. So he would always get feedback from the patients. Or he would review my work, oh Kiran that was good, but you could have improved there or etc, etc. So I learned all of that and that was a very niche position.

The same again, I applied for it, got the part. If I hadn’t applied, I would have never known about it. He took sort of the gamble, like I’ll reduce one day or two days a month at my regular practice to try it. And I started enjoying it more and then we picked up to every Friday. And then he, as he trusted me more, he let, started letting me do bigger cases.

And then I still remember the first time I did my anterior composite bonding, because I hadn’t done much of it. So same again, he had got the wax ups made, and the nurse was like, okay, Kiran, you’re going to do this. You’re going to do that. And the result was okay. Like I look back on that result and I think, oh, that was really not that great.

But then he followed up with the patient, it was booked in and then he polished it. And then he said to me, I’ll book her. And next time you actually just need to polish a little bit more and get the shapes a little bit better. And he took some photos and I thought, okay, great. And then I thought, okay, I need to get better at that.

So let me go on a course for that. So then I came back and I learned a few tips and then my nurse was like, what are you doing now? And I said, Oh, like this is opaquer, it helps with the joint line. She’s like, Oh, that’s so smart. I’m going to go to, so it was a great relationship and it really helped build the confidence and unfortunately what happened was that principal, he was a partner in that practice, so he sold his share and he bought the ortho practice at the same time.

So that’s how he said to me, he had always said to me, but at some point. There will be a position there for you. I just need a year to get it going. And then you’re going to come in as the lead restorative dentist. So in the back of my head, I always knew that that would happen, but it was great because then it pushed me even more because now I work with a team of orthodontists.

[Jaz]
But you have the MSC already at this point? Did you have the masters already under your belt? Right?

[Kiran]
Yep. This is like 2021 onwards, essentially. So I had the masters.

[Jaz]
And that gave you validation that gave you confidence for application. That gave you, had you not had the masters, maybe you would not have felt worthy to apply. I don’t know. I’m just making that up. I’m just, you tell me.

[Kiran]
Yeah. I mean, it potentially, yes, like it could have been that way. And I always felt like my written CV would get me through the door, like, because it’s like, okay, you got a masters, you got this, you got that. But when it came to the interview, it was all about how I presented myself, the communication, like.

Because once someone knows you, all they want to know is that you’re a nice person and you’re not going to do any crazy dentistry. You’re just going to be nice dentistry, good dentistry, keep the patients happy, keep the staff happy. And so for me, I think it was for myself and I’m not saying everyone has to get a master’s.

You don’t even have to go on a course. But for me, especially as a young dentist, I felt like it gives you that tick box. Okay. Yeah, cool. Like tick box. She’s got the master. She’s worked in a few nice practices. Okay. She must be okay. Let’s interview her and see what she’s like, basically. But I think, a lot of people, you need to network.

I think that really, really helps. So like, I’m part of the BDA Reading Committee, and I know you’ve come along to some of the lectures. But the best jobs you will get is through networking, and I think there’s not enough emphasis on that. So yes, I could have had my master’s in everything, but would it have maybe led me to the positions I’m in today?

Probably not. Because one of them I got just through networking. So, I think you need to go, if you want to stay in your local area, you need to go meet local dentists. Whether it’s at your BDA events, or if some practices do study clubs. Go in there, meet the dentist, meet the principal, get to know them, because at some point someone will say to you, hey, Kiran, we’ve got a job going.

Are you interested? Because they know you’re a nice person. They probably know your dentistry is good. That’s why you come into all these study clubs. And that’s what’s going to open doors for you. I still remember once, when I was leaving my NHS job before the plan practice got really busy, I was sitting on the table with one of the other committee members and he said, Oh, what are you up to these days, Kiran?

I said, I’m working between two practices, but I’m not really sure about one of the practices. And he said, Oh, we’ve got a job going at our practice. Why don’t you come and work there? He said, I’ll put in a good word with you for the principal. I thought, okay, great. So he said, Google us. I Googled and then the principal.

He invited me. He said, yeah, I’ve heard good stuff about you. This is the surgery. Do you like it? When can you start? And that was it. He didn’t even want to see my CV.

[Jaz]
I hear this all the time, Kiran.

[Kiran]
I know you’re a good person.

[Jaz]
I hear this all the time. You’re so right. Here’s your network. So I think, I’m shocked sometimes when I go to these BDA events, when I go to other study clubs. And the low turnout shocks me, like not that they’re super low because you guys run BDA and Reading really well in particular, but other ones where there’s only five or six people or 10 people where in the local area, there’s hundreds of dentists. So especially young colleagues. Yes, we see a few, but where are you guys?

You guys are complaining that there’s no good jobs. You guys want to be able to network, but these very low-ticket offers are there to go to these little study clubs or even free study clubs sometimes. Where are you? So make this a lesson to start shadowing people, start attending your local events, be inspired by your journey and your path. We’re out of time now, Kiran, but any last thing you want to say before we wrap up?

[Kiran]
I thought mainly like, just be happy. We’re in a very fortunate position. I know some days it feels like we’re not, but when you look at the general population of the UK and you see the struggles that everything, everyone goes through, just think, I’m lucky to have this job.

I think also just practice being grateful because we don’t do that enough. But if like now, if sometimes I sit there thinking, oh, what am I doing? But then I’ll have a look at a few photos or I’ll look through things. I’m like, actually, I’ve done all this. Like I forgot about that. A lot of time as humans, we focus on the negatives, like always just talking about negative negatives, but actually the positives you forget so quickly, like you forgot you did this amazing thing.

So always reflect, take the time once or twice a year to write down what you want to do, but also reflect on where you are, how far you’ve come, like if you had told me three years ago, I would have been like lecturing internationally, I would be like, no way, but. Like that happened this year for the first time and it’s nice to see the hard work, the drive does pay off.

And overall, like your dentistry is great, but it’s just a profession at the end of the day. It’s not who you are. It doesn’t define you as a person. It’s just one part of your life. So have other things in your life to keep you going, keep you happy, keep you motivated. And yeah, just find good mentors. I’m always here if people want to reach out or anything like that. Just drop a message.

[Jaz]
Tell us your Instagram because I want people to follow you and speak to you and tell you what wonderful job you’ve done this episode. What is your Instagram? How can they follow you?

[Kiran]
So my Instagram is @shanklasmiles, S H A N K L A. Even though I’m married, I don’t think I’ll ever change that surname because it’s part of me now. And yeah, just send me an Instagram message. It’s very easy for me to get in contact with you or anything like that.

[Jaz]
Well, thanks for sharing your journey, vulnerability, your decision making, the decisions that you make, and I’m so glad it worked out well for you. But I think it’s because of you, just the interaction that you have with that nurse, for example, just speaks volumes about you being open and receptive.

And I really appreciate you sharing your journey. I also just want to add that, you know, there’s a lot of doom and gloom and to be positive, like you said, but one of the best things that I did is I stopped watching the news. I just don’t watch the news anymore because the news is just depressing, negative headlines sell that kind of stuff.

And in a similar vein, a lot of these Facebook groups that are there and everything is constantly about litigation and patient complaints. And my principles reduce my percentage or whatever, like a principal versus associate war. And so I often think that a lot of these groups are also becoming quite toxic and quite negative.

And so it’s nice to sometimes switch off from that. And if you want to join Protrusive Guidance, I just want to give a plug here for the nicest and geekiest community of dentists in the world. I think everyone should look for other areas where people are a bit more like minded, a bit more positive, just like you are, Kiran.

So, Kiran, thanks so much for giving your time up to Protruserati. You’ve inspired hundreds if not thousands, so I appreciate that. I think it’s really nice to learn about someone’s journey and I’m proud of you to see what you’ve done so far and onwards and upwards and see you at the next BDA event, I’m sure.

[Kiran]
Yeah. Thank you so much, Jaz, for your time and yeah, good luck to everyone out there.

Jaz’s Outro:
Well, there we have it guys. Thank you so much for listening all the way to the end. What change are you going to make from listening to this episode? If you’re on Protrusive Guidance, our app, please comment below. I’d love to know what impact this has on you and what you will change about your mentorship situation or your work life balance or how you want to sort of choreograph your career.

Oh, I appreciate you listening all the way to the end. I want to thank Team Protrusive for all the hard work they do. And of course, our guest, Kiran, who gave such a great real-world account of her journey. So do follow her on Instagram. This episode wasn’t eligible for CE or CPD. We’ve got hundreds of hours of content on our app, Protrusive Guidance.

So check out protrusive.app. And of course, if you’re watching on Protrusive, you’re already in the nicest and geekiest community of dentists in the world. Thank you so much. I’ll catch you same time, same place next week. Bye for now.