Your Occlusion Questions Answered by Dr Michael Melkers – PDP015

Jaz’s Introduction: You can almost hear the excitement in my voice right now. I have none other than the Dr. Michael freaking Melkers on the podcast. And the reason I’m so excited is because as you know a lot of you know, I saw Dr. Michael Melkers in Stockholm last year in his two day course, absolutely just inspired me so much was a massive, massive part of my occlusal journey if you like. So I’m so excited to have him on the podcast. And for some of you who might have seen my Facebook exploded about a week ago. So for those of you who haven’t been my Facebook page is facebook.com/protrusive. And on there, you can check out the video version of this podcast. So you can see me and Michael, Michael Melkers were sort of, you know, our faces, interchanging and it’s the first ever video podcast I did. And it went well. Thankfully, a few little minor glitches, which I mentioned are sorted out in terms of streaming and stuff. But overall, if you prefer to watch rather listen, then you have the option for this podcast episode to sort of watch that. So yeah, that’s on the Protrusive Facebook page. And if you want to listen to it, that’s totally cool. That’s why I’m recording this. But you do get an added benefit of you know, I’m putting in the Protrusive Dental pearl for today and a few other extra bits. So let’s just dive right into that. My Protrusive Dental pearl for you today is related to occlusion and splints. And I learned this from Hit Parmar who is a dental technician at Fine Art dental studio, which is in Birmingham. And I met him at Kushal Gadhia, Rahul Shah and Victor Gehani sort of Ace course, that’s acecourse.uk.co I believe. We were discussing about splints and splints compliance, because we all know we all have those patients where the compliance with splinters is not so good. They feel it’s too bulky, not comfortable. And I had one sweet old lady asked me look Jaz, we’re recommending this, you know, 400, 500 pounds splint And what if I don’t get along with it? You know what, that’s completely reasonable. You know, you make a purchase, and you just don’t know whether it’ll be therapeutic for you, or it will feel comfortable. And if it’s not comfortable you’re not gonna wear it. So I completely understand the concern my patients have, but I’m sure you guys do as well. So how can we give our patients an experience of wearing a splint without actually you know, them forking out for the splint itself. And I’ve seen a device a couple of ways using notes, the blanks for like the FOS appliance and stuff like that. But anyway, the one that is more accessible to everyone in GDP land is the following, which is what Hit Palmer taught me, which is, you take a silicon impression, a putty silicon impression and you can use like a non-perforated tray for this. So if you’re trying to, let’s say simulate a Michigan splint, you take a full arch putty impression. And then you remove the putty index from the metal or plastic tray. And now you stick that putty back in. And you say “This is your splint, this is going to sort of recreate how bulky it might be.” And it’s important to actually get it looking similar. You can actually trim it and stuff to make it give the patient a splint experience. So I think that’s a really clever way to allow our patients to experience what a splint may feel like, which is really clever. So that’s my pearl for today. And hat tip to Hit Palmer for that one. And as you all know, I do like my splints, there was Episode 11 we’re talking about coloring them in with a sharpie marker to sort of see the parafunctional pattern and where that patients produce. So yeah, splints love them. Because splints can be protective appliance. And you know, you’ll listen in this podcast I think Michael Melkers and I’m not just saying this his three minute summary of splint. If you want to go straight to that you can go on my Facebook and I just soon as you cut that bit out, actually, that little summary of splints that he does on this podcast is such a bloody easy way to learn splints, it really simplifies things, which really are over complicated for no reason and you’ll see that. So before I dive right into the episode, I need to tell you about a visit that Dr. Michael Melkers is paying us in May 2020. And believe it or not, you know my podcast is you know, it’s been incredibly fun to do this and I’m privileged and honored to be the sponsor of occlusion 2020. So occlusion 2020 is going to be the occlusion event for Europe in 2020. And I want to make this I want to help make this literally the best most accessible occlusion sort of two day seminar program ever, literally. And I’m so excited. You can see from my social media, I’m pouring my heart and soul into this I really want people to to learn from Dr. Michael Melkers because he gave me so much in my practice, and it’s not just occlusion, he teaches his case planning, bigger cases, case acceptance and communication. So, occlusion 2020 Please save the date in your diary. It will be Friday, 29th of May and Saturday, the 30th of May, it will be in Sheraton Skyline Hotel in Heathrow. And please go to the website occlusion2020.com and check it out, you know, I don’t like to waste money and stuff like that. But really, it is important you hear this bit now, when I hope Dr. Michael Melkers doesn’t mind me saying this bit, but basically, I paid 1500 pounds for his two day course in Stockholm, okay, and because the motive of this course is to make it accessible to everyone of all stages. The price, especially if you before 2nd of January is 695 pounds for the entire two days. That’s not per day, that’s the entire two days. So you know, I’m hoping that way, it’s gonna be accessible to DF1. And all dentists who I appreciate how expensive courses can be. And especially if you look at the occlusion courses, you know, just do your research there. You know, 1000, 2000, 3000 I’ve done [ ? ] online program paid like 3000 US dollars for that. So this course is going to be amazing. I’m promoting it as occlusion and lamb chops, because obviously, it’s mother’s restaurant in the hotel. So please come and join us I’ll be there. I’ll be really trying our best to make it really engaging and fun event. And you’ll hear about it in this podcast episode because right at the end, we discussed the upcoming course. But he’ll take you on a journey from literally a single tooth from a dot to dots and lines to planning more complex rehabs, what to do in patients are in different classifications. Not everyone comes in and class one, obviously. And it is just going to be an amazing experience, which I really enjoyed in Stockholm last year. So please come along. Show you support occlusion2020.com buy before second of January, it’s 695. Thereafter, I’ll be honest with you guys, there is going to be a second sort of early bird promotion, but it will the price will go up that’s that’s a certain you know, it won’t go all the way up to the sort of 895 that you see on there. So please come along, and I’d love to have you there. So let’s dive right into the episode

Main Interview:

[Jaz]
Mike, thank you so much for coming on the Protrusive Dental podcast, this is a really cool new thing that we’re trying, it was your idea. And I was like, This is amazing. Let’s give it a go. So for the first time, we are sort of recording together. So thank you so much for..

[Michael]
I’m excited to be here.

[Jaz]
No thanks so much. And one thing that if my wife ever looks through my phone, and looks throughout our chats, and sees us talking about webcams and how excited I am, then I’m actually glad that it’s gonna be released, so she can see. She can see what was about so yeah, Mike, thank you so much. I knew about you because your presence on ripe is amazing. That’s how I think I learned about you. And then when I saw that you were doing a program in Stockholm, I jumped at the chance to, and that was such a key learning experience for me in my journey with occlusion with something I’m very passionate about. So I want to talk about Stockholm and I just want to help them my listeners to learn about a few key concepts about occlusion. So that’s what we’ll talk about. So Stockholm. Wow, two days intense of Stockholm with you. That was amazing.

[Michael]
That was a really, really good time. You know, Johan Hagman is always such a great host. And we had people from, I think eight or nine different countries. It wasn’t a program. It was a study club, it was a get together, it was a gathering of friends. And it was great to have you there as well.

[Jaz]
Thanks so much. And well, what I liked is that Pasquale was there as well. And Najiya was there and you presented the prize to her, which I thought was very nice touch. That was very, very sweet, actually. So that was Yeah, you’re right. It was it was more than just a program that was something special. So I just want to dive right in in terms of learning points. So one of the things that, you know, I came away with a better understanding of is face bows and articulators. That’s what you know, as a out of dental school, I really had very little idea. I mean, yes, we’ve got shown how to use one. But really to apply it, it didn’t make sense to me. So if I’m sure it’s a question you get asked all the time. So for our listeners, what’s the point of a face bow? And articulators really all that? Are they, when are they needed? When do you need to use this?

[Michael]
Well, it’s just a tool. It’s like anything else we use in dentistry? It’s like when do you need to use for Carver? When do you need to use a mirror? We can talk about all the specific applications, but anything in occlusion or anything in our dental instrumentarium is to help us accomplish a goal and it should be to help us achieve that goal more efficiently. So we want predictability and practicality out of any thing. So before I answer about face bows, I’ll tell you I use triple trays all the time and I know that shocks people, I teach occlusion all over the world. I’ve been editor of the equilibration society, but it’s not about being a better dentist by using a Face bow. A Face bow helps relate it with somewhat accuracy, the hinge axis to the maxillary cast. Why is that important? Because it can help us have relative accuracy for opening and closing motion on an articulator and relative accuracy for motion on an articulator. But whether we’re using an articulator or whether we’re using a triple tray, what we really want to balance is, how much time does it take to use the instrumentation that is the face bow, the articulator, the protrusive record, versus how much time does it take to just take a triple tray impression? But then you have to balance either of those with the adjustments that are needed in the mouth. Because if you’re just doing a single simple crown, and you take all the time to take a face bow, you take all the time to take upper and lower full impressions, and you take the time to take a protrusive record, is that really saving you anything? When you have a single crown, you have confirmative occlusion that matches the adjacent cusp slopes. So for me, both of them have a place in my practice.

[Jaz]
Absolutely. Very, there’ll be some listeners out there who don’t know what a triple tray is. Essentially, it’s you know, I use them as well. And it’s basically a three in one hence why it’s called triple tray, it will get the upper impression, the lower impression and the bite together. And a lot of dentists as you know, Mike and it’s great that you know, we’re talking about this, a lot of dentists are against triple trays because they think it’s like it’s so it deviates so far away from the traditional teachings of, you know, articulator face bow just like you were saying, and to be fair, I completely agree with you, I think, in a bit, you know, in a canine guided dentition, where there’s already so much disclusion, and they’re just conforming, and it’s just a single crown. I think, you know, that’s probably what laboratories are receiving the most of nowadays.

[Michael]
There is. In the United States, it’s above 95%. You know, it gets into like, religious cults thing about always use this or always use that. And when you’re saying always, you’re pretty much never right. It is what we need to get the job done. Let’s just stop why we need occlusion. We need occlusion, so we can walk into the operatory, with confidence that we’ll be able to do our job well. We need occlusion so that we can walk out of our operatory knowing what we did is going to last and then we did it efficiently. And the other thing that occlusion builds isn’t teeth, it builds your reputation. Because if you’re fumbling and stumbling around and things are taking a long time, and things are taking a lot adjustments, patients can lose their faith in you. Now, if those restorations that you made, regardless of what how you made them, or what materials, if they break, then patients can really lose their trust in you. And your reputation can be damaged. So when we, when I think about occlusion And now I’d like to jump into all the face bows and all the other discussions of articulators. Honestly, no one needs occlusion, we what occlusion offers is the component that fits in between all the other components, we have communication, what is the patient want? We have treatment planning, How can we get there? And occlusion is really what makes it fit. Because if you look at treatment planning 101 is how do you want something to look, how do you make it fit. Occlusion is what gets us there and helps things last, regardless of whether you use a triple tray, regardless of whether you use a face bow or an articulator, it’s all just about dots and lines. It’s all about distribution of load and reduction of forces and shear that help our restorations last longer.

[Jaz]
I definitely took that away from your program. And also you mentioned about communication with patients. And that was an element of surprise for when I came on your program to actually you covered so many gems about communication, which I took away with me. So when the patient says something like sensitivity, and then they’re very brief about it, I do your technique, I sit down and I say, tell me about sensitivity. Or tell me about this. And a few other gems that you gave away that day, just a few ways to make patients feel comfortable and to be a good listener and a good history taker was also really key. But the other thing that you talked about is why when we come out of dental school, why is it that occlusion is perhaps very poorly taught or our understanding of occlusion coming out of dental school is not as good as it could be?

[Michael]
Good question. And it’s a hard one to face. Because, you know, I lecture in schools I’ve taught in residency programs, and I’ve of course I’ve been a dental student. The reason that occlusion can be taught, occlusion is not appreciated in dental school education. And the reason is, is we’re missing one key element in our education and that’s failure. Is occlusion, as I said, is a solution to help us meet a goal. And that goal is longevity. And that goal is success, because we don’t want things to break. We start in school, and we start seeing patients maybe the end of second year, in some schools the end of third year. And all you have to really do is make it through one patient each half day for the next 18 months. And you will have restorative and geographic success, because you will be out of there and we won’t see our things failing. But when I was in dental school, and we had paper charts, I mean, some of these paper charts were this thick. And if you look back, and there was failure after failure after failure, and you know why these patients were in these schools and in these programs? So long is because what we were doing was not necessarily working as far as longevity. The only thing we remember from occlusion in dental school is probably like you said canine guidance. Why? Because it was the answer on an exam, canine guidance as far as us providing any restorative care in dental school. All it was was a tick mark and a checkmark on the criteria we needed to pass that restoration or pass that written exam. It didn’t really benefit us when we were in dental school, because we never saw the better of it. Because like I said, we never saw the failure. So the reason we can’t learn or rather appreciate occlusion in dental school, is because we don’t see things fail. When we get out of dental school. And we start getting into bigger cases or anterior cases. And we start getting into all porcelain restorations. That’s when we see things fail. And that’s when people are drawn to occlusion as a need, rather than a requirement that they had to take in school.

[Jaz]
And I remember I want the DVD when I was in Stockholm, because I got to write that. Yes, it was failure that because you asked that question, what’s the one thing we don’t, you know, experience? So that was awesome. So next thing I know, I’m sure you get this asked all the time. And something I get asked as well, because I’ve been to a few lectures on the different schools of thought they know I’m going here now is someone says to you, okay, I’m a recent graduate. Should I do Dawson? Should I do Pankey? Should I do Kois? Should I do Spear? Should I go neuromuscular LVI? What do I do, Mike, you know, so what would your answer be to a dentist who wants to sort of delve deeper into occlusion? And there’s a lot of the sort of pathways out there. And obviously, you’re very seasoned in a lot of these schools of thought as well. Do they really differ that much? Is one really better than the other? And what’s your recommendation?

[Michael]
To take my class, I’ll say, this may be your first occlusion lecture. This may be your next but just don’t let it be your last. I’ve studied with every single one of those programs that you’ve taught that you’re that you mentioned, and I learned something from all of them. I think if I could give a piece of advice is don’t religiously get pigeonholed into campy arguments between teaching institutes, because all of them have something strong to offer. And all of them have their weaknesses. I’ve been a visiting faculty at Spear Education with Frank, Dr. Frank Spear. I’m currently visiting faculty at Pankey. I’ve taught at Pac-live back in the day when I was in California, and I have and currently have my own occlusion education programs. That being said, I still go out to other teaching institutes, I still attend lectures by other people. I bring all that up to help avoid some occlusion wars, because you’ve seen that on any of the discussion threads, there will be people that are from polar opposite camps that can get along. And then there are people that are from two different teaching institutes that have incredible similarities in philosophy, but they battle like cats and dogs. And that’s the thing that’s probably the most unhealthy in our profession, it’s unprofessional, disagreement, and lack of respect for other people with opposing viewpoints. So if you ask me, and people ask me this all the time, which Institute should I start off with? I asked them what they’re looking for, because all of the institute’s are excellent, but they all have a slightly different approach. So it would depend on what that person asked me and where I would recommend that they go.

[Jaz]
Cool. Thanks so much. The other thing, which I always think about is something that you taught me, which is aesthetics, function, structural biology, okay? But you may raise a really good point that actually when were designing occlusions, who is something that I put my own thought into this as well, that when we look at natural dentition, we rarely see the perfect occlusion, ie the textbook type occlusion, right? And then when we’re designing, or rehabilitating these you know, worn and destroyed occlusions. And we’re rebuilding them and we rehabilitate them into this perfect textbook occlusion. And are we doing that? Because where we’re trying to restore that function? But no, you told me that actually, it’s aesthetics, parafunction, structure, biology. So for our listeners, can you just explain that theory? Because that was a real lightbulb moment for me.

[Michael]
Well, thank you. I’m glad that was helpful. And that’s the lesson I passed along. So aesthetics, function, structure, biology, was actually a breakthrough viewpoints that were shared with me by one of my good mentors, Dr. Frank Spear, is looking at that aesthetics, how do you want it to look? Function, how do you want to make it fit? Structure, what needs to support that? And biolog, what is any of the disease processes that we need to address? The way that I’ve done a little play on words or switch? What Frank or Dr. Spear has taught me is I say, that terrifies me because I don’t believe that teeth were much from chewing and I know other practitioners do and other lectures doing that’s fine. What I care about is longevity, that’s the same thing they care about. The ideology of break down for me, is structural. So when do things break down? When teeth come together, we can argue about whether they come together when people chew, or when they grind their teeth. Based on my experience of 25 years, and based on the research that I’ve done in grinding patterns, I think that parafunction is the highest threat that we really need to mitigate. Now I was laughing a little bit while you’re talking because you said two things you said perfect, an ideal and textbook. And the only thing about textbook is taking an exam and a like we laughed about it based on dead white guys in Scotland, because that’s where all the anatomical studies were done at the University of Edinburgh, through grave robbing, and some darker arts of obtaining bodies. But if you go with a cookie cutter approach, you’re only going to succeed when you’re making cookies. And that is everything that we’re taught about occlusion and occlusal design and parafunctional control is really based on a class one occlusion, canine rise transition a crossover. So what I like to share in my programs is well I’ll go over that, and I’ll go over the class one is I really want my participants and my attendees to understand the why. Because if you only know the how, when the “How does it come along and fit that cookie cutter?”, you’re screwed, excuse my language, but you are and we don’t need a cookie cutter we need a bakery. Because sometimes things come in and class 3 some things they’ll come in class three edge to edge or past edge to edge or they’ll come in class two div one where you can’t start or you will even struggle to achieve any kind of anterior guidance certainly on the Centrals and it may even take a while to get to the canines. So I think we need is a better understanding of how we can adjust and adapt regardless of the occlusal scheme. So for me an ideal occlusion if there is one would be one that can distribute forces as best as they can and reduce resistance as best as they can with the goal for both of those to be longevity in the restorations.

[Jaz]
Amazing and the take home point for me it was only designing the occlusion actually we’re not designing them to chew and function. We’re designing them to resist their parafunction. And that was just a beautiful, simple way to really change the way I thought about it. So that was great. One last thing to talk about before we talk about your upcoming program is can you hear these fireworks?

[Michael]
Late Diwali?

[Jaz]
Actually, it’s a birth it marks the sort of the birth of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, which was the first the founder of the Sikh religion. And I live in the equivalent of Little India. So that’s what that was. But anyway, so one thing I speak about before we talk about your upcoming program is splint therapy. My gosh, people are so confused about splints. It’s one of the most controversial topics it gets a lot of questions when anytime anyone posts on social media about splints, and there are Like all parts of dentistry in occlusion as well, there are very polarizing news. And we can go into the whole anterior midpoints stop appliances and those who are really against it and whatnot. But one thing I want to kind of just talk to you about is that or tell you is that your DAASA, so dual arch anterior midpoint stop appliance protocols that you showed, where it was amazing, and the way the cases that you showed and the application of confirming centric relation prior to rehabilitation, and he talked about the different indications, that was great. And I’ve been using that in a lot of my patients, and it’s been a real game changer for me.

[Michael]
Glad you’ve had success with that.

[Jaz]
I’m using that all the time in practice, you know, in the right indications, and we’re seeing great success with it. So can you tell us just you know, briefly to anyone who’s not familiar with these sort of appliances, is why you think they have a place in practice? Is that too broad?

[Michael]
No, but I would actually probably even want to make it broader is why would you use any appliance to begin with? And that’s where I always want to start, I always want to start with the why, we get into arguments, as you say, and we get into disagreements, because people have their what and their how, and they want everybody to do their same how, like you have to do my how, you have to use my how, my appliances, when my mind this, this this. But in some ways those discussions were missing the why. So why do we use orthotics? Why do we use occlusal splints? Why do we use bite guards and night guard whatever you want to call them. There are just a few very simple reasons why we use them. We use them to get people out of pain, we get used them to help protect things, and we use them to help figure things out. Palliative, protective diagnostic. So if someone is hurting, and they could be hurting in their teeth, they could be hurting their muscle or they can be hurting in their joint, they need a palliative splint. I don’t care what design it is. If someone is breaking their teeth or breaking their restorations, and they want to keep those restorations intact, then they need a protective split. Now if we need to figure something out, whether it’s in other camps that want to figure out chewing patterns, or my approach, if we want to figure out parafunctional patterns, or if it is important for a joint position, then it is a diagnostic approach. And you can use full arch appliances for all of those applications. And you can use anterior midpoint stops for all of those applications. It goes back to the exact same thing that we were talking about at the beginning of this chat is we have a lot of tools, but we have to have goals and then we have to balance efficiency with them. The reason that I personally like anterior midpoint stop appliances or as you you said the the Daasa splint that I shared with you the dual arch anterior scribe or stop appliance is that when we only hit plastic to plastic in the front, there are no teeth touching. So if you want to protect teeth, and you have no teeth touching, the teeth get protected. Now if we have pain or we have muscle pain, and we want to knock that muscle pain down, when we only hit at the midline, the temporalis and masseter are knocked down by 70% to 30% muscle activity, less muscle activity can mean less muscle pain. Now in the third occasion, if you’re looking to get the joint to seat and the joint is not seated, and you only have a mid point stop appliance then once those muscles are have their activity knocked down and there’s no plastic in the back and in the way for the condyle to seat and the condyle could seat. When I look at an anterior midpoint stop appliance or the Daasa appliance, I look at it as efficient. Now of course, after that everybody’s gonna scream anterior open bite, anterior open bite, Well, you know what, if you’re condyles seats, you’re gonna you have the potential to get an anterior open bite. So if you, we, our profession was using CR appliances all these years, where all the anterior open bites? So there are ways to prevent anterior open bites. If you want the condyle to seat and you have a severe wear case that can be a good thing. But say you just want to protect the teeth or say you just want to have palliative care of the muscles. There are adjunctive appliances that we can use to help maintain MID or maximum intercuspation position. And that appliances in the States at least is called an AM aligner and it doesn’t come from CR dentistry. It actually comes from sleep apnea, or sleep medicine. So in sleep medicine when we were repositioning are repositioning mandibles forward so we can keep an airway open so people don’t die. What we were able to figure out or what they were able to figure out is, before we started the anterior repositioning splint, what we did was we took a wafer bite in MIP. And then they wear their nighttime appliance, then when they take their nighttime appliance out, they put that wafer in, they could re learn, or they could maintain MIP, so that they didn’t develop posterior open bites. We can use that same approach to help avoid anterior open bites when we’re only doing a protective or palliative approach and don’t want any occlusal changes. I know, I just, I know, I just went on blathering for a few minutes, but you obviously hit on one of my passionate points.

[Jaz]
Mike, in the last three minutes, I don’t even know how long you spoke for you’ve literally done such a fantastic summary of splints. So that’s amazing. Thank you. And for anyone in the UK listening, I have found a supplier for AM aligners so we can discuss that and share that as well. So yes, I know that’s a very unique part of your program that I learned about these AM aligners and the DAASAs which have been a great staple appliance. So thank you so much for that. So I think that’s all we’ve got time for today. Otherwise, you could be speaking forever about this.

[Michael]
I have to tell you, Jaz. This has been a really, really lovely chat. I’ve had fun with just chatting with you, talking with you and discussing, bringing up thoughts but I love the format as well.

[Jaz]
Thanks so much. And obviously we want to talk about your upcoming event now. So occlusion in 2020, 29th and 30th of May. Okay, you’ll be coming to Heathrow, London to the Sheraton skyline hotel. What is your programme about?

[Michael]
Heathrow occlusion 2020, occlusion in everyday practice the 29th and 30th. What I’m going to do in what I’m going to aim to do is take the attendees on a journey from one tooth dentistry all the way up to full mouth rehabilitation. I want to bring blend theory and practicality. And if you’ve heard one consistent theme in our discussion, it’s understanding the why and not regurgitating the how or the what. I want people to understand not just how to do something, but why they’re doing it. Because when you understand the why you can flex from one tooth dentistry to two tooth dentistry, to arches to quadrants to full mouth. So if you’re practitioner that’s doing single dentistry and kind of nervous about jumping up to two tooth or three tooth, or quadrant dentistry, we’re gonna have something for you. If you’re already doing that quadrant dentistry and you aspire to do you know arch, even full mouth, we’re gonna have something for you too. And then based on my past experience of doing this program for a couple of decades, all over the world, having new practitioners and advanced practitioners and specialists, we’re gonna have something for you to take home as well, because it is a better dentist the day after this program in some way, shape, or form. I know we’re going to have a great time, we’re going to be going over lots of cases. The blend in the theory with reality and how it happens in everyday private practice.

[Jaz]
And there’s a restaurant at that hotel. It’s called Madhu’s.

[Michael]
Oh, this is the important part.

[Jaz]
I knew you’d like this. Okay, so it’s called Madhu’s and it has the best, most tender, most succulent lamb chops you’ve ever had.

[Michael]
Well, now, none there. I’m signing up.

[Jaz]
Great, Michael, thank you so much. And it’s really always a pleasure talking about occlusion with you. And we look forward to you in London in May 2020.

[Michael]
We’ll see you there. Thanks for inviting me.

Jaz’s Outro: So there we have it. I mean, he’s Michael Melkers is so generous with his knowledge always. So I hope you like that. Hope you enjoyed it as much as I enjoyed the recording that episode. Come and join us at occlusion 2020 in May. If you want more information, it’s occlusion2020.com, you can join the Facebook event page as well, see who else is going. It’s been a great response so far. So thanks so much for those who have supported me. And so the next episode will be Tif Qureshi, all about Dahl. Oh my gosh, a great, great piece of knowledge that he shares with us and it’s going to be a two part episode because it was just so much good stuff that it’ll be sort of harsh to cram into all into one episode. So be a two part episode, we’ll talk about communication and to fair in that episode, I do go in a little bit sort of deep into the occlusion sort of stuff. So if you’re still like a newbie into that and you don’t understand about deprogramming and these types of splints that you would use for dahl or or even how the dahl printer works because we sort of dive right into the sort of the fleshy you know topics the nuances of dahl them. They’re very, very basic. So I do apologize is a little bit heavy, but it’s for the for the purists for the geeks out there to listen to, if you’re not familiar with any of that sort of deprograms themselves more reason to come on the course obviously, which it will be in May. But yeah, Tif Qureshi,next episode. I’ll see you there. Thanks so much, guys.