The Ultimate Dentist with Devang Patel – PDP125

[Erika from Team Protrusive]
Hi guys! This is Erika from Team Protrusive. Jaz is sick with man flu and Ishaan has chickenpox. Please enjoy this episode from the Ultimate Dentist Podcast with our friend, Dr. Devang Patel. And we will be back next week for a protrusive episode. Enjoy!

[Dev] Main Episode
Hi, everyone! So today we have famous Jaz Gulati with us. He is actually my mentor. When it comes to doing podcasting, and learning other skills. I’ve learned a lot from his SplintCourse. And I would like Jaz to elaborate on that as well. But Jaz, there are very few people who doesn’t know you, could you please just introduce yourself as to who you are, what you do, and you know how you divide your time?

[Jaz]
I’m a guy who’s wearing his scrubs in his conservatory holding a Thano’s mug. That’s who I am. Dev, thanks so much! My name is Jaz Gulati. I’m a general dentist. And I guess what I’m about is learning, sharing, and having a good time making people fall in love with dentistry all over again, and having a good time. And that’s essentially my mission statement.

[Dev]
Okay! So Jaz, as we discussed, when I started this journey, I thought you were the first person, I contacted you. Because your podcast is really inspiring. This podcast, I want it to be for people who are graduate or who are, whatever time in their journey. They want to now up their skill. And then they’re looking forward to emulate or model someone else’s success. And what I’m trying to do is I’m trying to capture those people’s journey. So, someone can look at and listen to the podcast and say, ‘Okay! you know, what, Jaz did this.’ And in general, if you do that, if you put in that hard work, you do tend to reach that goal. But my aim is not to reach that goal in that time. Probably you reach your goal in 20 years time. I would really like to get some tips from you. So the journey is shorter for the newer dentists who are listening to this podcast, and they pick up on things and you know, they learn faster. So how does that sound?

[Jaz]
Dev, it’s such a great idea! Because essentially, you’re journaling everyone’s experience, and you’re going to fast track everyone. So you know how they say, stand on the shoulders of giants. Essentially, that’s what you’re doing. What you’re going to be doing with this podcast, and I can’t wait to see it watch and grow is helping people to be the best version of themselves in the quickest time as possible. And quite often when I’ve been recording episodes, in the past, and the topic might be something clinical, but those 5-10 minutes we spend on the journey. That’s always I feel well received. And people love to hear stories of others experiences and journeys, and that’s what you’re gonna extrapolate. So it’s very exciting to what you’re doing.

[Dev]
Yes. Because whenever I want to learn as well, something I see what that other person is doing. And I’m not that intelligent to invent a new wheel. I’m just going to follow if someone’s created one, why should I invent another one, that person’s gone through the hardship. And if you get those golden nuggets, golden points, so I probably reduce that hardship as Warren Buffett says, ‘Learn from other people’s mistakes.’ You will grow faster, rather than learning from your own mistakes. That’s a very expensive way to learn. So, to start with, why did you decide to do dentistry Jaz? What was your motivation behind starting doing dentistry?

[Jaz]
Mine’s a very clear one. Like, for me, some people like, “Ah, I don’t know, I was Googling and this happened.” For me, it’s like, I was 14 and I wake up, look in the mirror. And I used to have this upper left one because, you know, with dentistry, we can talk about it upper left one, which was literally so proclaimed this one rogue tooth, right. It was hideous. It really put me in a down mood. It was like a subject to bullying. I hated it! I was desperate for braces. So, that fateful day came, I had braces and very quickly the teeth align, right? I felt the change in myself. I felt it, internalize myself. I became so much more confident. I became the guy who you see in here now. I think that was such a great thing to me. So, I wanted to bottle that feeling up and give it to others. And then just the way that I was inspired, I guess, or the way my shackles are broken by getting a beautiful smile that was proud of. I wanted to be involved in that. And that’s exactly the path that led me to being here today.

[Dev]
And so once you get into your, undergraduate years, what sort of difficulties did you find? What sort of challenges you find during your university days?

[Jaz]
The usual stuff Dev. In dental school, I guess when you look back now, it’s obvious. But when you’re there in the moment, you don’t know any different. It’s like, one in like every day, there’s only such a few patients you can see. And then of those 50% of them will just not turn up they’ll dna, right? And so, it’s a very slow and frustrated learning experience. Some of those things that we learned are like, three hour lectures and waste management. And three hours is the total time you get to occlusion the whole five year as well. So like, it’s learning about shit that you don’t want to learn about. And if you’re podcasting be explicit or not, but it’s learning-

[Jaz]
You’re just learning about, but you kind of have to do, you kind of know it is you kind of have to. So that was, I think, frustrating. But to be fair, at the time, when you’re there, you’ve got all these new friends and you’re going through this journey together that community spirit. I didn’t realize at that time. I look back, I said, ‘Wow! dental school is so inefficient.’ But when you’re there, it seemed like a good time and a lovely undergraduate time. It was good, fun. Fun is definitely a word I’d use or the memories. And you think of the all the non-clinical staff or the holidays, the elective in Vietnam, all those fun things. So I guess overall, I had a great experience, very social experience. But when you look back at it, you think ‘Bloody hell, that was an inefficient way to learn.’

[Dev]
Yes. I always tell dentists who are an undergraduate that you know what, ‘Enjoy! Savor these years.’ Sort of have an experience of different things, because you will never be in that kind of environment again. Because as we know, when you come out, when you work in a real world, there’s lots of fears and lots of insecurities you have. Litigations and everything’s quite high up in dentists mind, and the university days are the time where, you can work freely.

[Jaz]
That’s true, Dev! I just wanted to add to that, actually those tutors that we have when you were a student at dental school, they are the same tutors who do like big courses and stuff. And they’re international educators and whatnot. And then they’re at your clinic, they just sat there in the office, writing your paper over. Just knock on the door sometimes, and have a chat and ask a good questions. And you’re gonna get that knowledge for free. So put yourself out there. If you show an interest, you’ll be amazed how these educators start showing an interest in your development. So I think there’s nothing wrong with actually showing an interest to that person as well.

[Dev]
Again, I’m paying the price of not learning as much in my undergraduate because I’m now kind of relearning everything back again. But it’s fun, because you can put into practice straight away. That’s the beauty of working in a real environment. So, let’s say when you finish your undergraduate, your BDS. Many people have different paths. So you have oral maxillofacial path, or going restorative, working in sort of general practice. How did you decide what path you wanted? Were you clear about it? Or did you sort of hesitated, what happened then?

[Jaz]
Initially, I was very clear Dev because my mission, I decided that I didn’t want to be an orthodontist anymore. Because on those ortho clinics, I don’t have a clue what was going on. I wasn’t inspired by the tutors I had in ortho. I was inspired by the restorative guys, and then also some more dental treatment that happened to me. In my undergraduate years, you wouldn’t believe this. The ortho that I saw highly praised that got my teeth fixed up was also the result of my lower incisors. All of my lower incisors becoming non-vital, having huge periapical infections. My lower central incisors being cracked and having being extracted. And now I’ve got three extractions, one of which is a Zirconia resin-bonded bridge. And so, I’ve been through it all. I went through all that in my undergrad, then I was like, ‘Oh! I want to be an endodontist.’ And then I was like, ‘Oh! I want to be a restorative dentist.’ So you know what? It was as different touch points. So, I wanted to be a restorative registrar. Something very appealing about being shit-high Endo. Really awesome at prostho. Really good at perio, like that was like the dream, right? You want to be a specialist in everything. And then when I did my DCT post in restorative, I’m so glad I did those posts, because it made me realize that okay, I don’t see myself having a future here. I feel as though it’s got the same drawbacks as being as an undergraduate, like it’s very slow paced. Innovation, unfortunately, doesn’t happen in these hospitals. I’m sorry to say. It happens in private practice. And then I realized that, I don’t want to pursue this five years Registrar training. I rather learn through short courses, mentors, one or two-year programs. And try and be good at all those disciplines and be the best GDP I can be. That’s how my soul journey evolved from being very set in my ways about, I want to be a restorative registrar to then accepting that you know what, this isn’t for me.

[Dev]
Yeah, I remember my undergraduate, if I’m posted on ortho department, I wanted to become orthodontist. If I’m in endo department, I wanted to become endodontist. If I’m in surgery, I wanted to become oral surgeon. It’s difficult when you come out. What would you like to do? So-

[Jaz]
And Dev, no one wants to be a GDP anymore.

[Dev]
Yes!

[Jaz]
You ask all these young dentists, they want to be a prosthodontist or a periodontist. They want to be a bloody public health specialist. Who wants to be a GDP-

[Dev]
I’m GDP, you are GDP, right? I consider myself a GDP. I’m not a special. I’m not-

[Jaz]
You’re a super GDP, Dev. You’re something else! You’re doing Khoury replacement one day then you’re doing like random other things. You’re a super GDP. You’re like a Lincoln Harris level, you like super GDP-

[Dev]
It’s good because then it gives me flexibility. If you’re doing just one thing, which is you know, there are two different thought process some people will say, you just need to do one thing to get good at it. But my thought process, if you’re doing everything is like good general dental practitioners, then you can plan cases like no one else can plan. Because endodontist will only see canals and you know, the teeth restore. Prosthodontist will you know implantologist will see things different. Orthodontist will see things differently. But if you’re doing all the disciplines, and I certainly encourage everyone to start with that. And then obviously, find your passion and then funnel in and try and release-

[Jaz]
Niche down!

[Dev]
Then exactly niche down but start with becoming a good general dental practitioner, because that will help planning your treatment plans.

[Jaz]
Dev, I had a dentist shadow me the other day, right? No, dental student, you won’t believe it, I had a fourth year student shadow me the other day. And he placed an implant. He’s really into implants. He’s from Egypt. He’s a dentistry student in Egypt, came shadow me. Hilarious! I won’t go into, maybe have time at the end. Well, I’ll tell you the story of how he actually fell in dental school. That was actually hilarious. But I’m like, ‘Dude, slow down!’ You only learn occlusion yet. So I think there’s, it’s good to do everything. But there’s a time and place for everything. So where do you think we should be, just finishing as an undergrad, where is that sort of standard?

[Dev]
I feel the standard after someone’s undergraduate finishing the graduation? Well, unfortunately, I teach as you know, postgraduate students who are in the standard is not as good, unfortunately. At least the people I’ve seen, I’m not generalizing, but the dentist, I’ve seen the standard is not good. And there is definitely room for improvement in doing general quality dentistry. Of course, if you just want to do oral surgery, then that’s fine. But if you want to do restorative, then you need to learn everything. To start with, and then obviously, as you said, niche down. So how was your first few years in foundation year or whatever you did restorative course? How was that? And how did you become more focused in what you’re doing right now?

[Jaz]
So the first paycheck I had, October 2013. I went on Gumtree, and I bought a secondhand camera, lens, flash with my first paycheck, to the extent that I was emailing this guy to buy his secondhand and macro lens. And for some reason, because I was polite, and I email, he thought I was a girl. And then he was flirting with me by email. And then, I had to pretend to be a girl to get the best price possible by email. So then I took my sister to meet this guy, like 20 miles away. And I made my sister go out and give them money and bring the lens back. So, the lesson here is, I knew I was listening, I was listening, I was listening, every bloody lecture, I went to about career progression. The first thing they said was buy a camera. So, it’s all good and well having knowledge. But I want to implement. So first paycheck, blew it all on the camera, basically, and a few little things. And then I started taking photos and photos and photos and photos. Like hundreds of photos. I had loads of batteries then. No stock of it. And they were all rubbish. So I’d go back now they’re all rubbish photos. But if I didn’t go through that rubbish period, I’m quite proud of my photos now. Very consistent, my quad photography is solid. I don’t have any issue with occlusals. And that is such an important thing now when I look back at it in terms of my development. So, first thing to do is I was very focused, take loads of photos, try and improve myself incrementally. Go on loads of courses, to the extent that it was a bit crazy how many courses I was going on. Because my philosophy was, first five years out, learn everything, and anything. Go to every free course, every section free course, every 50 pound course, the occasional more expensive course. And I was like a sponge, absorbing it all. And that helped me to then eventually decide where I wanted to go.

[Dev]
Yeah, I think that is really important. Because when you come out, you can even do 50 pounds section 63 courses, which is really good, by the way. I mean, I teach in Section 63 courses and I don’t teach anything different because people are paying less money. You know, so-

[Jaz]
Yes, exactly!

[Dev]
I don’t see any teacher who are teaching less because they are just delivering in a different way different platform. If you ask them question, they will always give the same answer kind of. So in the beginning, yes, I agree. Because you don’t have much you know, whichever course you go to, you are going to learn. Right now our level is such that now, if we go in someone, another course occlusion course let’s say, someone who is newly graduated will take more in because they will have more to learn than us. I mean for me when I go to course now I’m just looking for that small nugget. I’m looking for that small tip which can sort of improve my quality of dentistry.

[Jaz]
And the entire course will be worth that one small tip, right? You’ll find that it’s just one tip you gain and it’s worth it. Whereas when you’re newer, you have so much to learn. And then sometimes, because you have so much to learn, it can daze you, it can be a little bit too much. And then maybe unison, you know, you might not grasp it the first time around, but that fourth time you finally get it. And there’s no shame in that. Right?

[Dev]
And so you went on these courses, what I’ve found is that, when I do course, when I teach someone, they all love courses, obviously. And my aim is to make them implement that in their own practice. And that’s the whole goal, when I do that courses. How did you implement? Because the success of the course you’re doing is not almost on the tutor, it’s on you on implementing it. So did you find any difficulty? Like, you know, most of the time people like, ‘I don’t have this material. I don’t have this instrument. I don’t have patience.’ How was your journey in implementing what you learned in your clinical practice?

[Jaz]
Such a great question. And nowadays, if you listen to the podcasts where I talk about now, I talked about this as it’s just a big thing about knowledge is useless without implementation, right. So all these courses, they’re rubbish, unless you can apply it. So nowadays my mantra is, if you have a crown lengthening case, a patient who’s shown interest, then go on the crown lengthening course and then the next day, apply it. That’s my thinking now.

[Dev]
Yeah!

[Jaz]
But, I think like everyone, when I was new, man, I was going on everything in anything. It was all about breadth and not depth, which is the opposite. Now it’s about depth and not so much breadth. And so, I went through all where I’d go on a laser course, I didn’t really have a laser or anything, or just give an example. I go in a microscope thing, and I wouldn’t have a microscope to use. And all the things samples you can think of. Like I go on like a fiber reinforced bridges course, guess what, I didn’t have any fibers. You pick up a few things. But yeah, I was poor implementation. And so I wasted lots of money, lots of time, wasted on those courses, because I didn’t implement it. Now, because I was in my first few years, I don’t regret it because it was networking. It was a day out. It was still learning about bonding principles, seeing what’s out there. But definitely, I think a key lesson that we’re sharing here is implementation over everything.

[Dev]
Yeah. And again. So that’s the reason what I do is I would have my course running six months earlier than the hands on course. So people would start the course six months before, so that they can find that patient by the time they do the hands on course. And I think that’s the key for implementation because I’ve done in past so many courses. And I’m sure you have done splint courses where if patients, your students don’t have patient for splint, they forget, you know that obviously, your course is brilliant, and it’s online so they can go back. And that’s what I tried to replicate as well. But you know, that hands-on course, when you do that implementation is the key. Now coming back to a different side. Now, you know, you’ve done really well clinically. Now you’re giving back almost a lot more. And how did your Protrusive Podcast journey started? I know you described it a lot of times you started with the group, but if you could for my audience, go through it one more time. How did your journey started?

[Jaz]
Okay, the journey started when I was in Singapore. So surely where I left off before, I did the whole DF one DCT one, DCT two. Then I decided, ‘Oh my goodness!, I don’t want to be a restorative restaurant after all, because it’s not for me.’ And then I was, Liike what do I do? Do I enter the rat race now? Do I get a mortgage? And that’s it right? You know, I’m stuck now.’ Or what me and my wife decided to do at the time was let’s move to Singapore. Let’s experience a new country. Let’s go traveling the world. Let’s work as a dentist in Singapore. So I did that. My wife got homesick. So a year and a half later, we came back to the UK to see family and stuff goes she’s very homely and whatnot. I bloody love the Singapore. I want to stay there forever. So anyway, I came back and then rumors started spreading amongst UK dentists. ‘Oh, this is guy. He went to Singapore. He lived the good life, cool Jaz.’ And he’ll tell you how much dentists will earn in Singapore. What the language barriers are? What exams you need? How to find a bloody job? Everything, right? And so everyone and their dog had my phone number, right? So, every day from London to Oxford as I was driving there and then driving back, thank goodness I had this long commute. I was on the phone to a new dentist. There’s like a queue of dentists I’d call basically to just guide them through the same story. So, I thought to myself bloody I was knackered I was like, if there was a way to record my voice and record this message to everyone and just send them like a WhatsApp message or something, would that be great? A podcast? So, Episode One was expert dentists in Singapore. And then it was like okay, this is this is fun. Episode Two was like dentists in USA because I had my friend who has met in USA and then Episode Four for was Australia. And then it was me, I was like, ‘Actually, you know what, I’m not so passionate about dentists abroad. My real passion is clinical dentistry geeking out.’ And I got over my imposter syndrome. And started to just geek out and talk about all the things I love with amazing guests like yourself. You’re three parts on the format rehab and three episodes. I know you get a lot of love for it. You must do. Because people come to me and again one day, Dev you won’t believe this, Hameed, messaged me he said he learned more from those three episodes than he did from the entire Dawson curriculum. Entire Dawson curriculum.

[Dev]
I tell you why because you have the ability to make things tangible. Because I listen to your podcasts and I learn more than some of the books I read or some of the courses event because you have the ability to make it tangible. You don’t like wishy washy. Tell me what it is. And I think that works really well. Because us as a dentist we like step 1-2-3 kind of. We’re not into gray stuff. It’s better to have black and white. And you’re very good in making your podcast tangible to the level that you keep saying tangible a lot of times.

[Jaz]
I do. It’s become a mantra and I’m making dentistry tangible. I think it’s a great thing because so much of dentistry, A) is confusing, but then so much of it is actually simple, but it’s presented in a confusing way. So I get on great guests like yourself who made it tangible over three episodes. That was if you haven’t listened guys, listen to Dev’s three parts on full mouth rehab, a decent full mouth rehab in three episodes. Like we cover it in three hours, you’ll gain so much from this free resource. And you have to join Dev’s groups on format reconstruction for GDPs. I’ve got my principal actually, John. I’m sitting in the conservative recording with you. John’s doing a virtual console in my living room right now. And he knows you. ‘Oh, yeah, that episode was awesome whatnot.’ And he really loved it. He made it really tangible. So everyone knows about you, so-

[Dev]
Perfect! And as I said, I think I feel I know, it’s because of you Jaz. And it’s not back and forth. But really I’m there, right, I’m the same person, but it’s somebody it needs someone to strike that information out of you. So with this journey, have you had any struggles? I mean, what are the benefits you found out in your podcasting journey and the group, you know, created really an environment? What are all your struggles? Because doing a good clinical dentistry, spending a lot of time clinically and then spending a lot of time on your group on your podcast. Burnout is a big thing in dentistry. And you know, I truly believe I remove burnout. And I can only speak by myself. I deal with burnout by learning more, learning new things. Because I feel that people burnout many times is because they’re just in a rut, as you said used to in and out. But how have you been first of all in that situation? And you felt, you know, a little bit burned out? And how did you deal with that?

[Jaz]
Yeah! I have been in that situation before, two or three times in my short career so far, I guess, where I’ve really felt it because there’s so much going on at the time, I was getting married, and I was a DCT person so so much going on there. Just a month ago, I was like, Oh my god! I got my first ever full day occlusion teaching. I know you’re so experienced to doing it but for me is my first full day of content creation for that. And that was coming up to a live audience, I was getting this massive impostor syndrome. And then two days after was a full night of the live event and whatnot. And that really had to be worked up. And I think in both those times where I felt overworked. The way I got over it is, I used to believe that passion is the antidote to burnout. But I know that can be dangerous. And I want to just say that, you know, I still have experienced it. But it’s been short lived. It was 24 hours. And what got me over it was my wife and my son and a support network and cuddles and just knowing and having some mindfulness and realizing that, okay, you know what? That’s done. Now, let’s take a breather, switching off, and then reigniting and going again, basically. So it’s important to have a little bit of downtime. And I guess I’m in a situation now where, like, I have so many unread emails, which is not like me at all. I have so many unread emails, unread messages. I try my best, but I’ve accepted that I can’t be everywhere all the time. And family first, my health first. And then I always try and make time for all the lovely dentists who have something to share and I want to share something with them. So it’s all about compartmentalizing your time. And you can’t make yourself available to everyone all the time and realizing that, that’s okay! It’s okay. So I think a big part of me having the energy and the mental capacity to continue to do what I do is realizing that it’s okay to not have to completely destroy your mind and body to be able to achieve everything you know, you’ve got to look after yourself. So I think if you look after yourself, then you’ll be able to then serve others.

[Dev]
So how do you look after yourself? Do you have like hobbies? Outside dentistry which sort of breaks that stress level down? Obviously, spending time with family is quite important.

[Jaz]
Yeah! For me, it’s Cricket. I’m a huge cricket fan. IPL just finished, I watch a final on Sunday with my dad. So I used to play a lot more but shoulder injuries, I play less and I can’t wait until my son Ishaan starts playing cricket and supporting him in that. And then as cheesy it sounds, I’ve always been like so broody. And when my son came along, it was the best thing ever. So I’m a really passionate father. So when I’m with Ishaan, I’m with him. I’m not like multitasking everything. I’m 100% present with him. And like I did this mean, watch this, like online parenting course, believe it or not, right. And it’s amazing. The advice that this little lady Amy McCready. Like she she gave this advice that all you need to do is give your child 10 minutes of undivided attention per day. That’s it. Bullshit! Okay. 10 minutes is not enough. I think. When I give my son 10 minutes, no, this is the beginning. I usually do. It doesn’t work. Okay, so I tried that is that no, I don’t want to do that. And be just as a word. So when I’m with my son, I’m with him. And that gets me through as well. So cricket, and family and just, you know, watching my son grow up and teaching him things, which is such a beautiful thing apart.

[Dev]
So what are your future plans? And now you are where you are? Do you have any future grand plans? How are you imagining yourself in 10 years down the line? 15-20 years down the line? If you have sort of planned it that way?

[Jaz]
Yeah, I think in my journey, where I am now is I’m loving being a GDP. I’m getting a lot of TMD referrals naturally. And I haven’t really marketed myself to the public as TMD because then you really get overwhelmed. So I’m getting a lot of word of mouth, staff and referrals for dentists. I’m enjoying doing that. But I have podcasts about this for like, do you really want to limit your practice TMD? I don’t know. I like doing a full mouth reconstruction as well when TMD is made may or may not be involved. I like doing my Invisalign. I like doing my general dentistry. I like seeing children. I like doing my general dentistry. So, I’m at a crossroads where I think okay, do I increase the TMD stuff? Or do I keep it on the DL and treat the cases as they come along. But definitely the growth area for me and think I’m learning more about is airway. Learn more about airway, myofunctional therapies, and whatnot, to be more holistic. And I’m just enjoying learning and growing in that. And with a podcast, I’m just having such a great time there. There’s so many great dentists to interview and you’ll love the same with this as well with where you’re going with ultimate dentists. There’s so much fun to be had, and people resonate with energy. People can really pick something up and that really drives me. So continue to podcast, learn more about airway, which is such a fascinating area, and continue to enjoy the dentistry. But I think the thing I want to improve on myself is make more time for important things in life. And for me the thing with all the things that I do, the thing that I’ve let down is exercise, actually. So I used to really into gym and stuff. So the thing I need to really allow myself to do is get back into fitness and body health. As well as you know, all the fun things I do with family, the part that’s been neglected and just being out and open it is my health in some ways.

[Dev]
You know, this is funny, because in the sense that I have also done that, you know, grind. And all it came down during I was away on a course this weekend and all it came down to health. Because if you don’t have your health, you cannot work and you know, 100 miles an hour speed. So you know, it’s it you do need you need your health besides you if you want to play a long term game, because for short term everyone can- Because you’re young, you know you have energy. But if you want to do this long term. So are we going to see more of your courses on splints and how are you planning to spend more time on teaching? Or are you still concentrating more on developing clinical practice referral base and everything?

[Jaz]
I think a bit of both. I love teaching when I did my PG cert and dental education in 2013 as a DF1. Because I decided at that time, nine years ago, I decided that I want to have a profound impact in education in some way. I just decided and it’s just funny how it came to be and I’m hoping to make a dent in the next 5-10 years. But it’s a part I really enjoy. So when I did my first full, you know, nine to five full day of teaching the energy and the bars like you know, I wasn’t exhausted, I was buzzing at the end, question and stuff, sharing, learning. So, it’s definitely something that excites me so much and you’ve got to do what makes you happy do what excites you. So, I do seeing that hopefully, if people were to listen, learn, I’d love to navigate but I think it’s also growing my clinical practice. Look, I have a situation where I can do bigger case and stuff. But I want the five and ten year follow-ups. There’s no shortcut for that. That time, you have to do your time and see your recalls and stuff and then learn. Because, you know, failure teaches you so much. And the little failures I’ve had have taught me so much always. So, I also want to be at one place for a long time to learn, learn, learn in my own. And so there’s a combination of sharing some of them on basic things. But as I advanced in myself, if I can share that through a podcast or whatever with others and learn as well, by getting a really clever people on, then there’s so much fun to be had in that regard.

[Dev]
I agree 100%. So when you are, let’s say selecting any CPD courses, now, what are your criterias? What are you looking for, to do yourself?

[Jaz]
Right! So, I think there’s a trap that some dentists fall into, whereby they go on one composite course. And then six months later, they go on a different composite course. And then a year later, they see ‘Oh, this educator looks really fun and whatnot’, and they go on their composite course. For me is that once you’ve done a composite course, just implement, just implement, implement, implement, take photos, send it back to that mentor, educator, see how you can improve. I’m not saying that just learn from one person only. But don’t fall in the trap of just as you’d like composite that you’ll go on every single composite educator, right? Have a different, have some more strings to your bow, right? So, have a different learning pathway of learning different things, not just one thing from various different educators. When it comes to me picking now, I know that I’ve done enough composite and I’m very much implying it. I’m not, my posterior composites aren’t amazing. They can be improved, for sure. But I feel as I’m placed that okay, my patients are happy. I’m getting the occlusion, right. Yes, they could look a bit prettier. But that’s right. Because now I’m looking at okay, where are the gaps in my knowledge? But my patient population needs. So, I’ve got very elderly population. I’m doing far more crowns than I’m doing composite. So, that’s why I’ve really in the last three years, I’ve really gone deep into vertical crowns. I love doing vertical crowns. Okay, I think there’s so much beauty in that. And so now for next course for example, next course I’m booked on 15 in July is a Perio-Prostho 1 with Dr. Bilal Asha. He’s doing playing with the gingival levels with something I’m already doing with crown lengthening and vertical crowns. But I want to get a deeper knowledge I’m gonna learn from him. So it’s about what’s going to serve my population base? What are things that I haven’t been on a course on before? And how can I marry those two together?

[Dev]
Okay! Your journey has been amazing. And it’s an inspiration. And just to some sort of things up, if you have to do something different. Let’s say you rewind, 10-15 years back 2013, let’s say, if you had to do you know, now you’re back, knowing what you know, now, if would you do anything differently than what you’ve done now?

[Jaz]
That’s a really tough question. Because I’m a big believer in like, you know, like you said, as well-

[Dev]
Join some.

[Jaz]
You can only, yeah, you can only join the dots when you look back, right? You can only join them when you look back. And you look forward. Yeah. So, everything that happened is a blessing in the way that, okay, I am in a practice, which is 15 minutes walk from home. And it’s like lifestyle design, right. I design my life in a way that, okay, you know, my son’s nursery is behind my practice. My wife works, the next street along with my own my as a community dentist. So, I am really proud in the way that I’ve done a life design to be in a situation now. I’m also working shift pattern 8022208, which really helps in getting all the other things done. So I’m happy with that. And all the things led to coming out there. So, I can’t really say I change anything, but I guess a lesson that I could pass on is, I used to, like, I used to take out a tooth on someone, and then in before going to sleep that night. I think, ‘Oh man, what if that patient is in pain right now?’ Or I’d maybe would take an impression that wasn’t very good. And before going sleep, I be like, ‘Oh man, that air bubble in that impression.’ Or whatever, right? Bringing those issues that you know worrying seals, nothing except the peace of today, home with you. And then about when you’re bad sleep, it’s not a good place to be in your mind. It’s good that I care. It’s good to care. You should care. Care enough that you really show it. But at same time don’t care. So it’s you’ve got to find that balance, right? It’s not, you know, you can’t own the patient’s problem. Yes, you still have to care as a clinician, be a caring clinician, but you cannot take that problem home with you. So if I learned that sooner, I think I’m in a better place.

[Dev]
And it gets worse as you do. I mean, again, when I did my first two Khoury plates. As I worried if patients come back with a hematoma where the bleeding or you know, you worry a lot and again, when you do more complex cases, the stakes are higher. They’re more risk.

[Jaz]
But that’s because you care, you’re caring practitioner. You want everything to go well. You care for your patient. You care. You got to draw the line somewhere that okay, you can’t then, think about it and dwell over it for too long.

[Dev]
You know what? But it also comes with experience. So you’ve done enough and you know what, yes, I know this. And also it comes with patient education. So, now for me, if I’m worried about it, I’ll tell the patient. So then I know that okay, you know, patient knows, because many time you’re worrying because you think that patient might be in a situation where they don’t know what to do. So if I’m worried about, you know, hematoma or any problem, I’ll say, ‘Look, this is Friday, I’m doing a surgery.’ We can disclose, take my mobile and all my patient has my mobile, and I only have one number.

[Jaz]
You’re brave man! You’re a brave man, Dev.

[Dev]
Do you know what? In this country, we can do it. I just want, I want this. Yeah, I don’t want to elaborate. But here, it’s fine patient usually don’t contact you. Unless there is a problem. And I do push them to contact me. You know, I said, ‘I don’t wait until your review appointment and tell me that, oh, you had I don’t know, exposure of bone grafting or something like that, because there is usually no pain. So obviously, if you see any problem, call me, text me better than emailing me because I don’t go on email all the time. So just call and text.’ So if I don’t receive any text or call, I can sleep peacefully, because I know that, you know, things are fine. So I tell patient about dry socket. So if I take the tooth out, I tell them that, you know, it was a difficult extraction. Because, you know, whatever reason, there is a likelihood that you can get dry socket it. They might be a smoker. Having said that I don’t see that any smoker because I point blankly refuse to say, look, you know, you need to stop smoking. Before we go on to the implant or surgery journey. One of the way I found is just one patient, that this can happen. So the patient know. Obviously, they might freak out a little bit, but at least they know that this is one of the consequences.

[Jaz]
Yeah, if you’ve preempted something and said that, okay, if you get this kind of thing, then yeah. Call me if it’s this than other then don’t call me. Yeah.

[Dev]
Well, yes. So I mean, my nurses are trained to pick up the phone when they call next day. And tell patients, whatever patient says the first thing they said, ‘That’s normal.’ And then they panic, and they call me later. So, but usually, the first sentence is that’s normal unless it’s obviously there is nothing something abnormal. Because they have seen as well patients, how things goes, because when you do big surgeries, patients swell up. And even though I tell patient how big the swelling will be, they don’t generally, be able to visualize. I’ve started taking photos of the patients. I’ve asked them to send me photos in five days time. And then I show it to with their permission to other patients. So then they see. Because in the beginning, I was-

[Jaz]
That’s a good one.

[Dev]
Yeah. Because in the beginning, I was worried about scanning patients, but now it’s all about education. You just educate patient, and, you know-

[Jaz]
And setting expectations.

[Dev]
Yeah, the stress is less. So going back to your journey, let’s say if someone’s just finished undergraduate. They’re now dentists, they’re doing, you know, doing foundation training, or whatever they call it right now in the general practice. The whole point of this podcast is to speed up their journey. Can you tell us some golden tips, nuggets, which you want to pass on to, to make them more focused? Because I feel when you are focused, you can achieve things very quickly. More focused, and if you have any pointers as to, you know, do step one, step two, make it tangible in that sense, in your own words, how can we help them?

[Jaz]
Sure the things that come to our mind straightaway is an I’ll named the people who taught me all these things. Okay. So, James Goolnik top guy in London, got a great campaign about kicking sugar out, fantastic dentist. He taught me to buy this book called StrengthsFinder 2.0. And I did the book, this book, I did the quiz, and it gave me my top five strengths. So that builds self awareness. And there’s a whole theory that okay, you know, build on your weaknesses. But actually, what that book argues is that you will go much further in life, if you actually just focus fully and go all in on your strengths, you will actually make a much better trajectory. So gain some self awareness, figure out what your strengths are, and play to your strengths in your life, in your relationships and your career and everything. Number one. Number two is what Koray Feran taught me in a DF1 lecture many years ago, I’m a big fan of Koray Feran. And he said, ‘The secret to success or the hallmark of a great restorative dentist is the Trinity.’ So he thinks, okay, it’s magnification, illumination and photography. So get your loops, get good lighting, and take lots of photos. And then Lincoln Harris, told me, ‘Take photos, every patient, every time.’ And if you take a perfect photos, every patient every time, you’ll get you know good really fast taken photos. And then you get over in the beginning we take photos is like a big deal. Like training the nurses, buying the bloody retractors, not knowing which retractors to get it’s a big deal. It’s a big friction at the beginning. The sooner you can get over that friction. Get those reps in are picking up the camera. Getting used to holding one hand, taking the occlusal photo by itself, that really accelerates you. And the final thing when I say Dev to really, really get everyone up to speed clinically, as quick as possible is if you want to, if you want to grow as a dentist, take photos, if you really want to grow as a dentist, show your photos to other people. That’s when it strikes a fear of you know, fear of God into. And that’s when your work magically improves. And that’s where things beautiful things happen. Even if your works not so great the beginning just by sharing and getting over yourself. And then taking more and more photos and sharing. You can some people’s Instagram profiles are prolific tempos, scroll all the way down to 2014 or something. Look at their photos then, and they weren’t as good as they were now. But they’ve been taking photos and sharing them sinc e day one. And that’s the secret to growth.

[Dev]
And again, I like your idea of creating a group of the mess ups, you know, the failures, because what happens is when you are new graduate, when you see those Instagram photos, you think, ‘Oh, this is the dentist, this is it.’ You know this person, I mean, they have learned it, I mean, I have messed up many times, I still mess up. And but those are the photos not being uploaded on Instagram. And it gives you that illusion of perfect dentistry. But you know, you learn and I think social media is helping a lot of dentists. But also you need to be bit careful, looking at personal, how they portray themselves. And that’s why I really like your idea of creating that group where you post your mistakes, because you know, that’s the way to learn. And if you haven’t taken, I will tell you initially, when I started taking photos, I would not take photos on my bad book because I was so depressed, that you know, this is not a photo. But now-

[Jaz]
You can’t bring yourself to click.

[Dev]
Yeah, and my notes like you didn’t take the photo. Even my patient one time I fitted a implant crown. And I told him like, look, I want to change his crown. He was like, ‘I’m fine with it. You know, I’m going for a wedding tomorrow or something.’ As he come back, and we’ll change it. And when he came back, he’s like, Yeah, I noticed that you didn’t take photos of my teeth, like I’ve taken photos throughout the journey is like, let’s change the crown. I know you’re not happy with it, I think yes, I’m not happy with it.

[Jaz]
I love how your patient picked up on that.

[Dev]
Patients do pick up because I take photos, and I show them every time. So I’d always take for the pre-med treatment and post treatment because they need to be part of that journey.

[Jaz]
So important.

[Dev]
And again, going back photographs that I’ve sort of seen in all the successful dentist. One thing which is in common is they all take photos. They’re prolific at taking photos. If they’re not taking someone else’s taking for them. So some of the people, they have nurses who take the photos for them by the time patient comes in. But there is photos, like you know that and whenever I teach any dentists, I tell them, like forget about the loops, anything, get the camera first. Because until once you communicate with patient, and patient said yes to the treatment, you’re not going to be able to that five point magnification loops on anything, right? So you need to communicate with patient and many times I see cracks on photos better than in the mouth, you know, because you have, the amalgam cracks and everything. So yes, it does really help. So, coming to a conclusion, do you have anything that you would like to share for dentists who again want to model you, they’re looking up to you? And they say, okay, you know, how can I improve my dentistry in such a speed? How can it be focused? Do you have any tips for them apart from what you already shared really golden nuggets? Do you have anything? For as before we come to conclusion.

[Jaz]
I could be boring. And I say find a mentor. Because like you know, we’ve had that already. And it’s so true. Now I’ll let your other guests only get on very excited to hear all the other guests say that one because it’s an obvious one, right? Find a mentor on one eye. It’s so so important. I’m going to go a little bit left field. And I’m going to say that you’re going to have good days and bad days. And it’s okay. And surround yourself with good people at home.

[Dev]
Yeah.

[Jaz]
Family, friends. And I’ve said this so many times in the last month or so on the podcast, but it’s just my favorite thing right now. Yeah, life is not about the destination. It’s not even about the journey. It’s about the company. So you know, you’re the average, when it comes to dentistry, you’re the average of the five dentists who spend the most time with, you’re the average of those, right? When it comes to your personal life. That’s what I need. When I’m experiencing burnout or near burnout, I really need those cuddles, I need that understanding. I need that TLC. So, you know, find yourself good people in your life and in your profession. And they will be your guiding light. There’ll be your north star happiness is what you should focus on as a metric. And if you focus on that as a metric, then you know it will just guide every decision you make.

[Dev]
Well thank you very much, Jaz. Before I let you go, could you share us how can people find you? You know If they want to reach out to you, what are the ways they can find you?

[Jaz]
Yeah, of course, best place would be probably Instagram @jazzygulati or the Protrusive Dental Instagram page, you can check out Protrusive Dental podcast, the first thing you should check out because obviously you clicked on to Dev’s podcast you’d like to have already you know, Dev, if you haven’t listened to the Devs three parts on full mouth rehab, join his group, it’s epic. It’s so much free value being shared. There’s also if you’re then interested in learning further, he’s got so many great programs for you to do. But just start your journey with that. And then from the podcast, you were able to hopefully pick up a few nuggets from there as well.

[Dev]
Yeah, as I said, your SplintCourse is amazing! The amount of value you’re giving is amazing. I’ve done it. And I know, I’m not just saying by some of one of the course delegate of the online-

[Jaz]
I appreciate that man. The whole point of SplintCourse was helping dentists, like it’s a bold thing about TMD. I don’t want anyone to limit their practice TMD. But I started initially, my mindset was let me make a course to teach dentists how to think beyond the soft splint. But then I couldn’t do that. So if it was just that, if it was just splints only, I had enough content four years ago to launch a course. Because I’d done loads on splints by then. But it’s because I also wanted dentists to make a diagnosis to be diagnosis led to understand a little bit about the literature behind bruxism, literature behind TMD current thinking whatnot. What the etiology is management strategy is what makes good conservative care? That took me many more years to get it out. And so essentially, if you’re looking to learn about TMD, you got it. But really, it’s designed for that dentists who at the moment is just getting soft by God. And they want to see another way, another option. Whether they want to protect their beautiful veneers or they want to just find centralization easier. Or protect their dentistry from these horrible pathological bruxist that are out there. There’s other strings drawbar basically physiotherapy, etc.

[Dev]
But also there is no good splint book. So you know, you have collated all the information onto one plan. And that’s really important because-

[Jaz]
Man, I would love to write something honestly that you raise a good point. I would love to write something one day, man, but time is all the essence.

[Dev]
Yeah, no, I understand. And you know, I’m sure you will. At some point, we will see a book coming out to you. So again, thank you very much Jaz. That was Jaz Gulati. Thank you very much! And please, please follow Jaz and listen to his podcast I listen too.

[Jaz]
Dev, thanks so much! I wish you all the best guys. So to hit subscribe on the podcast, you have to hit subscribe so that you get the notifications. Hit subscribe. Listen to Dev. He’s on something. He’s on something really beautiful here. So support Dev, and we support people who are lifting you up or helping you like Dev.

Dev’s Outro:
Thank you very much Jaz. Thank you!