Toxic Work Cultures in Dentistry – Time for a Change? – IC030

Jaz’s Introduction:
What if you’re in a scenario where you are really struggling in your workplace? Sometimes dentistry can be like super isolated, feel really lonely, it’s just you and your nurse. And it can get a little bit depressing, especially in the winter months I find. So, community and mentorship and the right culture, oh my goodness, the culture at your workplace, the nurse at your workplace, the relationship with your nurse, or your DA is so, so key. So, these are all the themes that we cover with Dr. Sandy. So, Sandy is this dentist, who and you will hear his story in the podcast, but he was not in the happiest of places. And so, we discussed all about that, and how he had to make a major change and move hundreds of miles away to be able to gain fulfillment from his career. And that’s why I wish for everyone I wish every Protruserati gains fulfilment from dentistry, because it’s a truly wonderful profession. But guess what, this wonderful profession can be an absolute stinker, if in the wrong environment or even a toxic culture. So, in this episode, we’ll discuss all about that, how to recognize it. And what can you do, you have to just stand up for yourself, you have to be your biggest advocate. And I hope this episode inspires you to take some sort of change. If you are identifying with all the things that Sandy saying today, I want you to stand up for yourself and make a change. It’s never easy, because comfort zones are very comfortable, they’re very nice to be in. But growth never happens in comfort zones. So, guys, I hope you enjoy this episode with Dr. Sandy. And I’ll catch you in the outro.

Main Episode:

Dr. Sandy Rupra, welcome to the Protrusive Dental Podcast my friend. How are you?

[Sandy]
I’m very good. Thank you, Jaz. How are you? You, okay? Thanks for having me.

[Jaz]
Very good. Thanks. No, no, thanks for making time for this. So, we spoke a long while ago now, you’re very inspiring. And the kinds of things that you’re telling me in terms of helping dentists finding where they want to be in a more thriving environment, a better environment and while they’re working, enjoy themselves. And it was from your own experiences of going through the LOWS, that we can speak about how to attain the HIGHS. So, before we delve into your story, which involves a little bit of self discovery, a little bit of reflection, we talk a little about litigation and how that can affect someone as well. Tell us about where you are right now, what you work, your little background would be really good to hear.

[Sandy]
So, I am an Associate Dentist I’m working in the Northwest at the moment. I’ve been there for about a year. I’ve originally qualified in ’07 from Cardiff. Actually, I was a trainee as a technician first.

[Jaz]
I did not know that. Wow. Okay, cool.

[Sandy]
That many moons are gonna actually like what-

[Jaz]
Do you still make your own crowns? I know a buddy called Riz who actually makes his own lab work as well as being a dentist now.

[Sandy]
You know what if I had time I would. I do my wax ups actually for, so I find it quite therapeutic actually. But I started that in ’98 in Manchester and I finished in 2002. Took a year out and I worked in a prosthetic lab for a year and found that I had a bit of a passion for dentures and all things removable. And then I went on to Cardiff then to do dentistry. So, I finished that in ’07, pretty much since then I wasn’t comfortable going into practice straightaway. So, I went on to do some hospital posts that were there for two years and sort of oral surgery, restorative, bit public health in there. And then 2010, I had landed my first associate job in South Wales.

[Jaz]
Can I just ask you, Sandy, because you’re on the first few people who said about the dental public health. But I hear colleagues talking about it. What was that like? Is it just lots of reading and lots of signing things? Like, what does that actually involve? Just tell us briefly what you know, if you’re working and you did a bit of work in dental public health, what do you actually do?

[Sandy]
You know what I can’t answer that question. I don’t know, I don’t know why I did for six months. But I can’t even put it into words actually just literally like putting things into place and regulations. It was mostly a supervisor. You know, I was under a supervisor at the time. And you know, I’ll be talking to over 10 years ago now.

[Jaz]
Was this just you on a laptop and just like-

[Sandy]
Pretty much, yeah

[Jaz]
Sorting things out?

[Sandy]
Yeah.

[Jaz]
Just the whole the whole pen pusher thing, but like a keyboard warrior kind of thing.

[Sandy]
Yeah, working through Excel, you know, trying to work out the formulas in Excel, put things into tabs. But yeah, I mean, it wasn’t one of the most enjoy. For me personally, it wasn’t most, you know-

[Jaz]
Well, you come from a background of very hands-on, technical, so maybe for those colleagues who decide that they don’t like teeth, and they don’t like people that maybe they want to do dental public health, you think?

[Sandy]
Absolutely. If you’ve lost your built then yeah, go for it.

[Jaz]
That’s the beautiful thing about profession, right? You can go into those little avenues.

[Sandy]
Absolutely. But I mean, those two years were really, really good. I mean, they give me a little quite a bit of insight into dentistry. I was coming out of VT, right. You don’t really know a lot. So you obviously trying to put your skills into place and working straight into practice then.

[Jaz]
Sandy, one thing I just want to follow up on that is, dental public health. Just touching on that again, and a few other things. Few other sub specialities and training posts that dentists do. Sometimes they do it because they are worried or afraid of going into practice. And I know mainly my colleagues have been affected by this. Do you think, you kind of mentioned a little bit that you weren’t quite you didn’t feel that you were ready for practices yet. Do you think that you might have done these posts at the beginning because you weren’t quite ready for practice?

[Sandy]
Absolutely. I think for me personally, I think confidence is a big, it’s a massive thing. And I think at the time, you know, I learned a lot from VT, you know, we were talking over 10, 12, 13, 14, many moons ago. But I think the essence of VT is to obviously, learn as much as you can, but you got to be in the right setting, you’ve gotta be in the right place. You’ve got to have that infrastructure, you know, with your principal, your mentor to support you through all these things in order to sort of develop yourself in your skill set, be competent, coming out treatments, but for me, personally, I wasn’t at that stage with at that point, in my time, in my career, where I felt that I was, I don’t wanna use the word good enough, but maybe, yeah, maybe I wasn’t good enough.

[Jaz]
Maybe it’s just how you felt at the time in yourself, right?

[Sandy]
Absolutely. And I think that for me, personally, give me a little bit more insight into treatment planning, talking to the patient, your bedside manner, you know, just those little gems like that to try and help you to sort of move forwards with the working in general practice and dealing with patients on a day-to-day basis. I think that’s really important. And I think, you know, for me, personally, that was probably one of the best things that I’ve done. I do think it’s important.

[Jaz]
And then when you started to work in practice, how did that go for you? And then was it good from day one? Or did it start off in a shaky ground and have that evolve?

[Sandy]
So, I worked in a practice in South Wales, mixed practice. And yeah, it was good. In the beginning, it was good. I had a good four months there. However, as I found when I was working, the treadmill started to kick in, you know, in terms of I know you’ve touched on certain points in other podcasts where you talked about the financial aspect of associates, how much money is enough? And so I think, you know, as you start sort of working you say, ‘Oh great! you know, I was in VT I was earning 30k, or now I’m an associate and I’ve doubled or tripled, or whatever.’ So, I think, based on that, you know, it’s difficult because I think at the time UDF system, as it is now, it’s difficult to provide that level of care for patients, you know, when you’re hitting that treadmill, you’re seeing how many 20, 30, 40 patients or whatever it is a day, to keep that consistency-

[Jaz]
Exhausting stuff.

[Sandy]
Absolutely.

[Jaz]
Mentally, physically backbreaking.

[Sandy]
Absolutely, I must have come home absolutely shattered. You know, just-

[Jaz]
You five days a week? Six days a week, what were you?

[Sandy]
I was five days a week, full time. Absolutely knackered. And then there was a little bit of a turning point where the practice had a bit of a change in infrastructure and dynamic changed, where more than responsibility was put onto my shoulders as the associate. So, as I found I was doing more and more pressure. And I almost forgot myself, you know, I almost forgot what kind of person I was. Because I was so tired to think about what do I want to do? Or where do I want to go? Or what do I want to do? It just became so monotonous, moving forwards and thinking each day was just boring. Like, for me personally, there was no joy. You know, it sounds a bit morbid saying that. And it’s sad, but you know, it is one of those things, unfortunately after-

[Jaz]
Sandy, you know, you mentioned already that you did the whole technician training and you know, very much hands-on and try and do things as you were trained and how you enjoyed rural prosthetics, and then to go to a public health and various post that you did, and then the pace jump into high volume dentistry where now, you say you do your wax ups. Now, you probably didn’t have time to do your wax ups before and then you probably were this creative side of you. Am I right in saying that you felt lost that you weren’t be able to express your creative side in dentistry?

[Sandy]
Absolutely. I thought I felt totally boxed in, you know, literally boxed in, that I couldn’t do the things I wanted to do. But I don’t want to say couldn’t, I wasn’t able to because maybe I wasn’t pushing myself to that point. Or I was saying, wasn’t saying no, I can’t do more. You know, and I think once you get into that trap, I think it’s hard to break out of it. Because we all have these ideas of what we want to do you know, sort of career what kind of things that we’re passionate about? Do I like bonding? Do I like ceramic work? Do I like prosthetics? You know, implant dentistry, but it’s getting the traction to go out there and say, right, I’m gonna go on a course now. I had no time to go on a course, because I felt worried taking time off work. Am I going to be able to catch up? Or am I gonna be able to, you know, finish my contract? And all these worries are going through my head, you know, in terms of back then. And I think-

[Jaz]
Have you heard the analogy of the frog? The boiling frog? Have you heard the analogy?

[Sandy]
No.

[Jaz]
The story. So, it’s like, frogs are really clever. And they’re all just adaptable biologically in the sense that if you put a frog in some hot water, it raises his body temperature so that it doesn’t feel the effects of the hot water anymore. And then as you turn up the gas and you make the water hotter towards boiling, again, it adapts, okay. And then eventually, when it gets to a boiling point, and now the frog can’t survive, it doesn’t have the energy anymore to actually jump because he spent so much energy trying to adapt to a temperature. When he got to boiling point, it didn’t have the energy to jump anymore. So, a lot of my colleagues over the years have described the scenarios where they just felt exhausted, boxed in, trapped in just like you said, and it reminds you of that frog analogy. Frog story that you’re just exhausted and you don’t have the energy to jump anymore. So, it sounds like you did jump eventually. So, tell us what events took place that made you realize, okay, you got to now take massive action, again, a theme I’ve spoken up before in that episode with Laura, Laura Bailey, where she took massive action as a therapist to really take her bonding and composite veneers and stuff to the next level, which is really inspirational. So, when did you end up taking massive action? And have that actually come to be? And what can we learn from that as people who may be listening now and thinking, whoa, Sandy is describing me?

[Sandy]
Yeah, I mean, when you work Monday to Friday, and you do a heavy contract, something’s gonna slip. Okay? So, it’s inevitable, something is going to happen, it’s going to slip, maybe you missed something or misdiagnosed, or you haven’t written your notes or something’s going to happen. Because-

[Jaz]
Absolutely.

[Sandy]
You can’t keep that traction going. So, for me personally, it was an issue that I had, you know, because I fell into that pot. And it was a difficult time. Because, you know, I had to look back and reflect and say, well, look, was it me? Or was I working too hard? Or? Yes, I was working hard. And I’ve obviously missed something, you know, so we’re only human. Right? So, you know, however, we have to be able to say no, to a certain point, you know, that enough is enough. You know, I can’t do any more, you know, you don’t have a stone. You can’t squeeze me any more than I morally squeezed, you know.

[Jaz]
And so what made you put your foot down?

[Sandy]
Well, I think for me, personally, it became quite toxic where I was working. So, I think I had to remove myself from that environment. And that took a lot because, you know, I had rapport with the patients. I’ve been there for six years, you know.

[Jaz]
Financial security, and I know you’re working hard, but there is, you know, mortgages and stuff, and you have security in any job that you’ve had for so long, and to do the big change and to jump ship is a huge risk financially.

[Sandy]
Absolutely. And I think I had tied myself. You see, because when you work for somebody, your risk is mitigated by someone else. So, when you’re working for somebody, they are, not must have every principal is like this, this is some amazing principals out there who look after the associates. And that is absolutely, if you’re in a position, or in a space like that, keep that. And learn the best you can, you know, keep moving forward to keep growing. But I first unfortunately, was in the opposite position. So, I had to leave where I was because I had to make a decision to say, ‘Look, do I still want to be here or continue with this?’ Because it wasn’t doing very good for me for mentally, you know, I was so passionate about my job, you know, I wanted to be a dentist since I was young, you know, we have this drive and this passion. And I think I lost that. I almost forgot about how hard I used to think about dentistry all the time, you know, when I was younger thinking, right, I’m gonna make it, I’m gonna do it. And I think I almost lost that drive. And I almost had to go back to the beginning, right back to the roots. And I think we’ll look when I left that practice, I thought that was the pinnacle moment, when I thought I came home, and I literally broke down. I thought, you know, what, why is this happening to me? What have I done wrong? I was lucky because my wife’s a practice manager, so we could bounce off each other, you know, that she was a big driving force in to get me back on track. And I think it’s important to have a good support network. You know, at the time-

[Jaz]
Massively

[Sandy]
I was so lost and so isolated. You know the fear of talking to colleagues as well, you know, you want to ask someone for this-

[Jaz]
Stigma is attached to it, right? People will think, ‘Oh, he’s not doing very well’, or that kind of stuff. And that’s why we see so many anonymous posts nowadays on Facebook, right? Because people are afraid to attach their name. And I totally get that, man, I totally get that.

[Sandy]
Absolutely. I mean, to me, personally, I think I’ve seen about three or four last week, and I think it’s heartbreaking. Some of these younger dentists are working, I think, you know what, I can relate to this, you know, we can all pick up little points, I think, you know, I was there, or I can understand where you’re coming from. And you almost want to reach out to them and say, ‘Look, don’t worry, there’s always things that you can do to come out of it and actually make your situation better.’ So, I think it’s important to understand oneself. I think if you look back and you think, right, well, look, I need to change, how am I going to do that? So-

[Jaz]
How did you do that? I mean you left, which is a huge step. And we had the support network, and your partner was up, which is amazing. But then where do you go from there? And then also, we will rewind a bit as well. How do you identify a toxic working culture? For me, it’s always been for the most number one determine for me has been my nurse actually. Believe it or not, like if I had a solid nurse, it makes a huge difference to your career to your daily work. If you have a relationship with a nurse, which is got too much friction, or it’s an attitude clash or culture clash, that, it has a huge impact. Not just one person, right? Can determine your data. What kind of things happened to you that led you to deem your workplace as toxic culture at the time?

[Sandy]
Yeah, I mean, if you go into a practice where you can sense that this is just a bit toxic or you know, whatever word you want to use, you know, stop doesn’t feel right. You are going to find it quite hard to change that dynamic in that practice. As a single person, you’ve got standards and you’ve got a way of treating your patients, you’ve got high standards, and you want to carry out high end treatment and whatever you want to do. It’s hard to try and then push that forward to you or your colleagues or your team members. So that in itself, isolate you. We don’t want to be going from job to job, we want to stay stable. But however, sometimes, you know, the biggest thing is taking responsibility. I had a really good quote a years ago, Spider Man, Peter Parker, his uncle said to him, ‘With great power comes responsibility.’ Yeah, but if you flip that, ‘With great responsibility comes power.’ Now, I felt that I had to be responsible for everything that I do. So I had to be responsible for my destiny, my path or journey, you want to call it? You know, so I had to be responsible.

[Jaz]
You are the captain of your ship.

[Sandy]
Absolutely. So, I had to make decisions, which were hard, uncomfortable.

[Jaz]
Do you mean like clinical decisions or like just give us an example?

[Sandy]
Examples, the things like i had to sits into a situation where look, do I stay? Or do I go? If it’s an environment, which I’m uncomfortable with? I’m coming home stressed, I’m coming home, you know, mentally exhausted. Do I need to take myself out of that space and go somewhere else? You know, I might take a paper, I might take up stuff in the beginning again, those things are hard, right? You know, being comfortable is easy, isn’t it? But being uncomfortable with something which is difficult. And I think that’s where we have to dissect it and say, look, what do I want to achieve? Look at the long game. Look, what do I want to achieve? What do I want to do? Move forward? What things do I left? And that wasn’t for me, so I had to move. I mean, I had, I was out of work for good four months. You know, when I left that practice, I had no opportunity whatsoever. You know, I had to come home and literally do nothing. It was hard. It was difficult.

[Jaz]
Did you feel like as the months were going by that you felt, did you explore other career options? Just asking you? Did you wonder? Did you think about it?

[Sandy]
Absolutely. Those thoughts crept into my mind pretty much every day. But then something was overpowering me, and something was telling me no, subconsciously, something was saying to me, no, just stick it up, hang in there. And you know, things will get better. And I kept telling myself that every day. And eventually, I made the bold move to move. I just moved, and I relocated up to the Northwest. And I started again, it was almost for me Jaz, it was like, going back to VT, you know, starting afresh, and that journey for me was amazing. You know, if that never-

[Jaz]
Liberating?

[Sandy]
Yeah, if that never happened to me, I don’t think I’ll be thinking the way that I have been, you know, in terms of-

[Jaz]
You’re in a much better place now. And it’s because you took that massive action. Now here, here’s an interesting question, did you wait for the right job to come up and then decide to relocate? Or did you, because I’m just thinking about that there might be someone listening who’s in your similar scenario. And then did you decide, Okay, put your finger on the map? Okay, I want to move here, and then look for jobs there. How did you do it?

[Sandy]
I had a good opportunity. I had a friend who had a practice, who offered me a job, essentially, that’s how my house snowballed into, you know, in South Wales, I knew a lot of people, you know, in terms of dentists, clinicians and nurses, and, you know, just, it’s a small area, right. So in the northwest, I had nobody, you know, in terms of my networking was pretty much zilch, zero. And I think, for me, personally, I had to develop myself. See, I wasn’t really a confident person, you know, so when you’re not confident, you don’t feel that you can execute certain decisions. And you’re always trying to find problems rather than solutions. So, you probably-

[Jaz]
You doubt yourself, don’t you?

[Sandy]
Absolutely. Always second guessing always, is that good? Or, you know, my wife does all the time, don’t, you know, you got to think differently. So, my wiring now is a lot different. And I feel better without knowing it. And that sounds silly, but subconsciously, I feel better. But I think for dentists who are in a position where they are not in a good environment, sometimes it’s hard to say to somebody to go and get another job. Just go and find somewhere else. You know, it’s easy to sell it to somebody, but it’s quite hard to execute and actually do, you’re going to have to-

[Jaz]
Actually, to do that to actually do the action, implementation and listen and heed that advice and actually do something is the main reason and I come from a position of someone who’s worked in the NHS, and I still have a contract where I see children in NHS and I think is great, what NHS dentists can do. And dentists will, actually NHS dentists, as long-term dentists to serve the contract. But a lot of our colleagues, yeah, they’re happy and makes contract and they love it. And they’re doing, they get to have their funds as well. But there are those dentists who are on this treadmill, exhausted and whatnot. And for them, this is a security blanket, and it’s too difficult to actually give up that contract and face the consequences of leaving that behind.

[Sandy]
Absolutely. I mean, you hit the nail on the head there. I mean, you know, in terms of my associates’ point of view, and a principal is probably there’s two different viewpoints that you see. So, I think it’s very difficult because I think you need to be in a position where you always are having to map out what you want to do. You know, I’m constantly mapping out things, you know, in terms of what I want to do. I plan my journey because I think I had to; I had no choice. You know, I didn’t want to leave the profession. Being on that treadmill is difficult. Sometimes you could, you’ve got to just look back at it, look, if I’m on this treadmill, fine. As long as I can isolate certain things in my career and say, look, I’m working nine to five, I’m doing my ups. I’ve got a bit of private in there, what kind of private work do I like doing, I like bonding, I like ceramics, I like you know, implant dentistry. Try to map out your journey into that and try to sort of network with people that are going to help you support you. Because without support is difficult. You know, you got to knock on the right door as well. You know, you’ve got to be able to contact people who you who think well, look, you know what I can learn from this person. And don’t be afraid to do that. Even if it’s asking for help, you know, even if you need to-

[Jaz]
Yes.

[Sandy]
To help. I used to, I mean, coming up, contacted lots of dentists to ask for help, you know, and sometimes you don’t get a response, that’s fine. You know, you don’t-

[Jaz]
That’s okay.

[Sandy]
That’s fine. You know, it’s not an issue, you just keep going, keep going and keep moving forwards. I had one dentist a couple of weeks ago asked me about some advice. And, you know, it was nice to be asked, rather than the OSCE. You know, that’s really nice to be asked. And, you know, it’s one of those things, I think things happen, Jaz, you know, this is life, right. And I think when it comes to our careers, you know, there are going to be external factors which affect that. But I think in terms of career development and moving forwards, we need to be able to always keep saying this, but come back to self, you know, what responsibility have I taken to action certain things that are going to help improve me mentally, reduce the stress, you’re never gonna get rid of it just completely, but you can mitigate this risk Yeah. So, I think it’s important to be able to have that strategy in place, you’d have a plan in place and try and execute it, which is what I’ve done the last two years.

[Jaz]
So, your plan essentially was because I’m thinking already. I’m thinking about how to title this episode. And it’s how to recognize a toxic working culture and how to take massive action or something like that, basically, right? So, I’m thinking, let’s make it very tangible, you recognized it, you felt the effects of it, it was laying heavy on you. And then you took massive action, which is a huge step, and very difficult. So, kudos to you to do that. You’ve got a little bit of luck. But I don’t believe in that. I always think you make your own luck; you had that network. And then you took a big plunge, you took a huge risk move to a brand-new place where you didn’t have a network, didn’t know anyone, except this, obviously, this friend who owns a practice, and you went for it. And so, tell me now how that’s worked out. What kind of working environment it is, and how it’s different to where you were before? And what’s going well, for you and what you’d like to pass on to those listening?

[Sandy]
Well, I’m in a mixed practice right now in Northwest, and it’s going really well, I’m really happy. I’m in a good place. Got a lovely profile of patients, I started to then look at different courses, what kind of things do I like doing? What kind of was my interests? What was I thinking back then? And I can actually remember what I like doing back then 10 years ago, you know, six, seven years ago. I started thinking, I think it will look like a bit of bonding, like ceramics. And I started to think, look, this journey is going to be quite a long journey, it’s not going to happen quick, you’re not going to happen overnight, you need to graft in you need to, you know, sort of sit down and actually plan out what you’re going to do. So I decided to go over sort, of course, of the dominant castle in Birmingham. So, I think, you know, after I did that, I learned so much from that course. And, you know, I’m going to implant dentistry. Now, I’m doing a bit of bonding. You know, I’m actually-

[Jaz]
But more importantly, you learn all that stuff, but you are in an environment, correct me if I’m wrong, you were in an environment where you could implement.

[Sandy]
Absolutely, you have to be in a position where you’re going to spend money on courses, you’re going to spend your time and effort, you know, learning. If you can’t execute those treatments, or you can’t, you know, every patient base where you know, you can do your bonding, or you can do ceramic work or it’s not going to work. If you want to be, if you’re in a position where you’re not happy in your work, and you want to move forwards, and you know you have to do that. You have to almost cut it off and move forward. I know it sounds quite harsh to think like that. But I think I had to tell myself that I had to do that. And right now, what I taught myself back then I told myself back then, I’m glad I did because right now things are working the way that I wanted them to work, because I’ve put them systems in place to do that. But it’s so hard to get that first initial momentum. That first step is the most difficult part. You know, it’s so difficult, but I think you need to keep the faith that things are gonna get better. Whatever it is, you know, whatever issue is in litigation, if it’s toxic environment, if you don’t love your job, you know, you just come home, and you’re stressed. Try and find something that you know, try and map everything out, you know, get piece of paper map-out things where you think look.

[Jaz]
And don’t be afraid to try things, right? Because, you know, the famous quote, as I say all the time, ‘Sometimes you have to kiss many frogs before you find your Prince Charming.’ You know, it may not go right, you know, imagine you relocated, and things didn’t work out for whatever reason. And then you just have to have that commitment and determination to do it again until you find where you are able to live your best life, work life balance, and try and practice dentistry that you want to and just on that note, here’s an interesting question. Are you taking photos, chemical photos at the moment?

[Sandy]
Right. So, this is one thing that I wanted to learn about photography. Okay. Now what I do is without fail, I take two photographs minimum every day, because I wanted to learn about photography. So, I spent about six months going through a camera, settings, lighting, I could have got on a course, absolutely, could have gone on the course and had done for me and then going into practice the next day, and it’s done. But I wanted to learn for myself, I wanted to have a photography that was set from me personally. I wanted to have a picture that was my identity in terms of I know, it sounds a bit terms of my style of photography, and it’s amazing photography courses out there. Absolutely amazing.

[Jaz]
Yeah.

[Sandy]
You can tell when someone did on a course because of the photography they’ve done. Yeah. So, I think it’s great.

[Jaz]
Yeah, for sure.

[Sandy]
My photography, you know, I had to learn. Took me six months, but now I’ve not perfected it. But I’m more confident. This is an example of something which, you know, just to show that sometimes putting the effort in and learning takes time, but when you get there, it’s great. I mean, photography is fantastic.

[Jaz]
But Sandy in your previous working environment, am I right in saying that you weren’t taking photos?

[Sandy]
Absolutely not.

[Jaz]
Okay. So, here’s my opinion. I truly believe that dentists who take photos are happier dentist. Okay, let me explain why I think this okay, A) you get to document your growth. And we look back you think, ‘Wow, I’ve grown I’ve grown and grown.’ And you don’t know you’ve grown unless you’re taking photos, in my opinion and documented it. B) you get to have the opportunity to fall in love with the detail. You fall in love with little details. You enter the flow state. I think I’m a big believer in that. And I know it in myself, like the days where I’m just so busy and stressed that I think you know what if I just pick up a camera, now my nurse will lose her shit. Because we’re running late. Those days, I don’t enjoy as much. But those days like literally there’s a correlation between the number of photos I took that day, number of occlusal shots and quadrant shots I took that day and my happiness as a dentist, I guarantee it. And I know lots of dentists who feel the same way. So, if anyone’s listening and you feel stuck clinically, I guarantee it if you start taking the time and energy to take the photos, not only will you grow as a fastest way to grow, right, and if you’re gonna grow even faster, you start sharing those photos to your colleagues, and that will make you really grow faster. It”ll make your preps instantly improved. And then I just find that as a great way to just enjoy dentistry again. Imagine going through your whole career Sandy, without taking any photos of the work they put people’s mouth, can you imagine?

[Sandy]
What I think? I mean, what you just said there. I met a good example last week I left my camera on, okay, in the bag. So, I took it out the next day. Dead, completely dead. I was so upset the whole day. I haven’t got a spare battery. My chargers at home, I can’t take any photographs today. My nurse will be through our thank God you know, but I think you’re absolutely hit the spot. Photography for me is an essential kit. Essential for me to do, you know what I mean work.

[Jaz]
And even if you don’t want to post on Instagram, it doesn’t matter, stop. We don’t need compare and stuff. It’s more for your own growth, your own journey and just like I said just fall in love with something. Even if though if you don’t like your preps, whatever, I still hate my preps and look at them people I couldn’t stop. I don’t like you know, how you’re always critical of your own work, right. But I like to document, and it just gives you another focus. And you know the thing I love clinical dentistry; this is the byproduct. This is the proof. This is the evidence that I look back on one day, you know, people look at photos of their kids and stuff growing up. I like to look at my birth preps and six years and I think yeah, you know what, I’ve got a nail that margin. I’m improving.

[Sandy]
I think it’s great. I think you’re definitely right. It’s definitely a confidence builder. I think it definitely helps to improve yourself. And I think it’s something to focus on as well.

[Jaz]
Focus, very true.

[Sandy]
You need to have that sweet spot, you come into anything like the cameras. And my cameras, so first thing, my routine is in the AC on, uniform, my burs ready, camera on the bracket. And we’re good to go. Yes, take a shot, put up on the screen. Some of them staring at the screen. I’m thinking, oh, this looks great.’ And the patient is sitting, you know, you think, I love it. You know, I think maybe a bit too much. But you know, I think I don’t think it’s wrong with that. But yeah.

[Jaz]
Nothing wrong with that.

[Sandy]
I think it’s great. I think you know, when I say critical learning from a photograph, say look, how come I’ve improved that, you know, I constantly look at things when I’m you know, if I see a patient six months ago in a filling, or whatever the crown, how could I improve that? What could I have done? I never had that before. I never had that thought process before. You know, and I think it’s definitely changed me subconsciously, understood without thinking about it. You know, I think it’s really important. I mean, how do you feel about you know, in terms of looking at social media now in terms of how that’s completely blown? You know, I’ve grown up in dentistry right now.

[Jaz]
I think social media is a good one in the sense that I think I truly believe there’s never been a better time to be a dentist because you get exposed to so much like before the only way you can get exposure on something is actually you have to go travel thousands of miles to go on courses. Or to observe someone over the shoulder or get textbooks and then only get half the story. Now people are posting videos and even YouTube. Man, I learned wisdom teeth surgery initially through YouTube, believe it or not, and it’s the truth, right? People learn from my videos and images and whatnot. So that’s the beautiful side of dentistry, right? It’s made the dental world smaller. And it’s made the access to information and sharing of knowledge is great. So younger dentists, now, younger age, are able to upskill and get access to this information that you’ve had previously very difficult to find. But the dark side of social media is comparing yourself to others and feeling like you’re inadequate, and that kind of stuff. So it’s really, really important to never do that. And always just compare yourself to where you were a few years ago. And it’s nice to be inspired. It’s beautiful to be inspired by other people’s work. But don’t let that be like, ‘Oh man, that work, that patients doing, that dentists doing so much of this work, and I like it, and my own work doesn’t look like that.’ Well map the journey to how you’re going to get work to look like that DM that person.

[Sandy]
Yeah, I mean, that’s pretty much what I, you know, had a, there’s always pros and cons. Social media is great. I can network with somebody over in Australia, if I wanted to do a course online, from the comfort of my home, you know, I can do a crown prep with, you know, Ripe Global living courses where it’s online, you know, that’s all great, fantastic, absolutely brilliant, I can find somebody that across the world, you know, and talk to them like I am with you now. But I think when it comes to the validation, that’s where I have a bit of an issue with, in terms of, you know, I don’t want dentists to feel like, well, look, I’m validated by this six-inch screen that I’m seeing a photograph of brilliant composite bonding, or a brilliant crown prep, or, you know, yes, it’s great. How, like you said, how do we get to that point where we could emulate this, this treatment, or this bonding or crown prep, or whatever it is, learning is great.

[Jaz]
But that shouldn’t be our measure, right? That shouldn’t be a measure, our NorthStar should be happiness. So, that’s it, in our lives and also how we make our patients who are ultimately happy and pain free. And those two should be the primary measures. Now, yes, your followers and your quality of your work, that’s good, because not so much the fall is more about the quality of your work. If you can improve that, that gives you a focus, just like we spoke about earlier, that’s wonderful. But your NorthStar should always be happiness, happiness, happiness, and if you could just work on that, if you just work on your own happiness, you will have a great grip.

[Sandy]
Absolutely. You have to work on self that come you know, you are feeling good about yourself, you feel confident, that’s going to shine through, right? When you go into your surgery, the work you see your patients, ultimately Jaz, if a patient is happy with what work you provided for them, if they’re happy with your bonding, okay, and you post that on social media, and you don’t get much of a response from it. And you think that I haven’t had a response from there because it must not be good. But is the patient happy? Does it matter? In the grand scheme of things, who are you trying to get validation of? Your colleagues or your patient, I just find it difficult. I mean, obviously, I’m on social media myself. So I think I’m still trying to get to grips with how these things are and trying to find my sweet spot in terms of how I want to sort of be portrayed on social media in terms of my patients, or they can have a look at my page and say, look, this is where you kind of want to work that he does and get an example of it. But I think there’s some amazing dentists out there to do some amazing work like yourself, you know, so I think, you know, we just have to kind of sort of work with these people and just try to say, look, I’m gonna learn from this group of people and try to not worry about what happening around here, you know, and just try to focus on that.

[Jaz]
Just another word on social media is nowadays social media and people’s Instagram and whatnot and Facebook profiles. It’s almost becoming like a portfolio of their work. And I know some dentists, as associates have been hired and actually been headhunted via their social media. You know what your work, it may not have all these bounces and beautiful photography, but I see that you’re very consistent. And I liked the fact that you rubber dam or whatever, are you looking for a job? And this just happen to load of colleagues. So, if anything, if you just post up your work, even if you feel as though you have something to learn and post them reflection, that’s a great way to post reflections. Essentially growing this community of dentists online, whereby you’re critiquing each other in a good way and in helping improving each other’s workflows and protocols. So, there’s lot to learn for social media, if you use it as a portfolio as a young dentist, I think there’s a-

[Sandy]
Digital CV right there in front of you, you know, here’s my page, you don’t always have to give a CV these days, you just say, here’s my handle, it’s my social media handle. Go ahead, have a look. I think that’s fantastic. I love seeing you know, dentists too, you look at a post and you think, right, this dentist been active for four or five years, but you look at the first post, and then you look at the what, I love that journey. That is-

[Jaz]
I love that as well. It’s one of my advice just go back and look at the first few photos. They weren’t as epic as they are now, but you see the growth and you’ve got to you’ve got to give love to the growth.

[Sandy]
I think it’s fantastic. I mean, you see, the photography wasn’t great, but now it’s like, you know, see, that’s the journey. You know, there’s gonna be peaks and troughs along the way. But you just got to try to be the best version of yourself and just try to move forward with the times you know, move forwards, keep pushing forwards.

[Jaz]
Sandy how difficult was that though? Thinking forwards and thinking positive is many dentists have had litigation experience or whatnot. I know we spoke about it briefly as well. What advice could you give to someone who may be going through a complaint or having an issue? And that itself, imagine your working environment is good. Imagine you’re working in an environment, which is not toxic, it’s quite the opposite. It’s quite good. But even just having a complaint over your head, that can really turn your life upside down, I believe. So, what advice could you give to someone who may be going through this tough?

[Sandy]
I mean, how are the complaint is all for me? I think it just ruins everything, doesn’t it? I mean, we’ve all been there, when the page is not happy. The letter comes through the post. And this is a, I think, firstly, not to panic. You know, I think if you’re in a good place, and you’ve got good people around you, seek advice, you know, speak to your principal, your colleagues. I think there’s a point where you’re speaking to too many people and obviously getting advice from various angles, which samples can give you situation, I’m a member.

[Jaz]
Too many chefs.

[Sandy]
Absolutely. I think you need to obviously, first things first, the indemnity, speak to them. But also, I think, sometimes things you can’t change, you look back and reflect to say, look, how did this happen? What happened? What could I have done better? Or what could I have changed? Or if I didn’t do anything wrong, keep telling yourself that. You know, because I think the worry is, you will think the worst, right? You will think oh, this is gonna happen, or I didn’t do this. I didn’t do that. But I think it’s important to look back and reflect. But I think most important thing is to talk to people, get the support that you get, that’s going to help you push forward through an action of a complaint. I just find it heartbreaking. Sometimes when you know, you have these complaints put through anything, I didn’t do anything wrong. Why is a complete picture compelling about me? Sometimes these things happen. I think we just have to brush that off and say, ‘Look, it isn’t me. I do think right’, I had a situation where a colleague had tweeted it up, right five, and refilled the tooth. Okay, that refilling failed. So, I gave the patient the options. And I saw the patient, then about a year later, and I took the tooth out to give them all the options. Retreatment patient didn’t want that. And then we looked at a situation where the patient was pulling the options denture bridge or implant when a patient decided to go for a resin detain bridge. So, we provided them with resin retained bridge. And to cut the long story short, the patient put a complaint in and said, ‘I want you to provide me with an implant.’

[Jaz]
Okay, on the grounds.

[Sandy]
Basically, this bridge has failed, has come off. So, the bridge can be bonding. So, look back at it. Why is it the bonding? Is it the occlusion? What was going on here? This was about 10 years ago. Now, at that time, I thought myself, was it, did I do anything wrong? Or what’s happened over the complaint? Nothing came of it. But just the action of patients saying I’m going to complain that caused the nervousness in your belly, you think? Oh.

[Jaz]
Absolutely. Sleepless nights and doubting yourself and the cascade of events. That yeah-

[Sandy]
It was just literally nothing happened. But I’m just trying to explain that, that just having someone even say, I’m going to complain, or I want your email address, I want the practice just complaints, policy.

[Jaz]
GDC numbers-

[Sandy]
These things are, you know, I don’t know, it just really has a negative effect on you, you know, in terms of your whole day is just the whole week.

[Jaz]
Do you look back now obviously now that that was settled but like in the sense that it nothing came of it. But when you look back now, if you could tell your former self some advice, it sounds like you’d say, why are you panicking and worrying about something that’s most likely not going to turn into anything? Obviously, you catastrophize, you think of the worse, and you spent all that time worrying? You know, worrying does nothing except steal the pizza?

[Sandy]
I will be more confident now thinking, well, look, you know what, my notes are rock solid. I’ve given the patient, all the options I’ve discussed with them.

[Jaz]
Yep.

[Sandy]
Warned them of the risks, and they’ve consented to this treatment, I’m not gonna lose sleep. And that’s my mentality. Now, if I’ve done something which I think you know, okay, I’ve missed that. Or I could have explained this. So, I didn’t put that in my notes record. Fair enough. But I don’t feel, I don’t lose sleep over it. And that, that took me a long time to be in a position to do that.

[Jaz]
And then Sandy, it’s about not owning I mean I says all the time, like a broken record, but about not owning the patient’s problems. So, recognizing that, hey, this is your problem, the patient is your problem, here are the options, course, or what would you like to do? And if they ask the recommendation, you can give a recommendation because you’re allowed to give a recommendation based on what you think is clinically the most appropriate option, but they can choose the other options that exist. And these are all the suitable options. But then essentially, it’s over to you. And then as long as your notes reflect that, it just makes you much more peaceful, sort of positioning yourself that, hey, you’ve done what you can and now it’s up to the patient is, you know, you don’t need to dwell on this any further.

[Sandy]
It’s difficult because I think sometimes, you know, as human beings, we do have this sense of, you know, feeling like this when something doesn’t go right. You know, you almost want to be sort of cold to it. But my treatment planning is better now, the last few years than it was then because I was unconfident in what I’m setting in the patient.

[Jaz]
And that comes from confidence, right?

[Sandy]
Thanks to myself feeling-

[Jaz]
And having confidence in yourself.

[Sandy]
It comes back down to self and monitoring and planning is better, you know, right now, because that way I’m locked up there is minimal risk of a patient saying, ‘Well, look, you didn’t tell me that.’ I mean, I’ve got a sheet, magic sheet up on my wall with marker and I’m talking to the patient, while I’m telling them exactly what’s happening with the pros and cons. You know, what the alternatives, you know, explaining in a diagrammatic form in terms of what a root canal is. So, they walk out with all the information they need, but that comes with me feeling confident about what I’m saying, also to the patient, and really not forwards. You know, I could talk to you about root canals all days, you know, but does the patient understand? So, I think it’s important in that sense, but it all comes back down to everything that we’re discussing, everything that we discuss, it all comes back down to self, you need to have that confidence. And that takes time. It’s not going to come overnight; it takes time to build and treatment planning from going on these courses is really important. You know, start from the basics, start from right from the beginning, learn the foundations, like I said, I feel like I’m doing a second VT right now, in terms of last three years, and it’s great. It’s fantastic, but I think it’s working fine.

[Jaz]
It’s good to see you smile, as you say that it’s good to see you, you got your mojo back in dentistry you’re doing, and being more creative. And I think if I was to summarize this episode so far, is recognize that toxic environment, have the courage and try and find the courage and the support network to to jump ship, don’t be the boiling frog, jump ship, be the captain of your own ship. Invest in yourself, in your mental health and your physical health and on courses and knowledge because ultimately, that is you. And that will give you more confidence. And the patients can smell that, I know they can smell that. Take more photos and enjoy your dentistry again. Is there anything else you want to add Sandy as part of this, a hopefully a feel-good episode with a happy ending and just sharing struggles with those dentists because I know loads will resonate with what we’re saying today. And it’s a shame. But I’m hoping if even just one dentist will say, ‘You know what, I ended up boiling frog today.’ And this episode has given me the courage and the conviction to take massive action. And I think we’ve succeeded, don’t you?

[Sandy]
I think I couldn’t agree with you more that, Jaz. I mean, those points were clear, concise, to the point, I think, you know, you need to come back and reflect on everything that you do, you know, always constantly think about what I’m doing, why am I doing it? How I’m going to do it? You know my map everything, you know, write down things that you think even think go right, or just overanalyze, you know, self-analysis is important. You know, I think it’s really, really important. Recognize solutions rather than problems. How am I going to get out of a difficult spot? What do I need to do to get, don’t look at problems and automatically, your brain would just be rewired. And you subconsciously, you won’t even think about the problem. You think about, if you said to me, we have a problem, right now, we’ve got a bit of an issue, right? What we’re gonna do Jaz, just put some points and it’s a must find a solution, automatically that comes out. But you’ve got to train your mind to be able to do that. And it’s difficult to try. And I’ve had lots of dentists over the years talk about things like this. And I think myself, ‘Yeah, but how am I going to do that?’ You know, when you’re in a difficult position when I was in a difficult spot and dark times, I think, how am I going to do this? What am I going to do? But I think you really need to firstly, recognize a problem. Yeah. And then find the solution and then say, right, this is what I’m going to do, I’m going to stick to it. Most important thing for me, my biggest advice would be to keep knocking on the doors, Keep approaching people ask for help. That’s really, really important. And if you get knock on 10, doors, and nine, close the door, new one opens, doesn’t matter is fine. There’ll be someone out there that’s going to help you to guide you through certain things, give you advice when you need it. I mean, your podcasts, there’s support groups out there that can help, you know, my doors always open. I think it’s really important. I do feel sad, and the dentists feel like that, you know, I think you must sort of reach out to them and say, ‘Look, don’t worry, man, it’d be fighting.’ Yeah.

[Jaz]
Trying to give him a shake and a hug. I mean, ‘That it’s gonna be okay, we can do this.’

[Sandy]
I think t’s important. I think these are the people that are going to be our colleagues, you know, we got to stick together. And it’s kind of why the storm together and help each other not trying to put each other under the bus.

[Jaz]
You know Sandy, people who ski and they go super, super fast, right? And then they go around these trees and stuff, right? Imagine that all they were thinking about was don’t hit the trees, don’t hit the trees, don’t hit the trees, they would be just seeing the trees and hit the trees. But instead, what they do is follow the snow, the snow, follow the snow. And then that’s how they succeed. So that the lesson there, just as you said is, if there are problems in your life, stop finding the solutions. Don’t just moan and dwell on the problems. So, I’m glad we ended on that, because it’s a good sort of summary of everything we talked about. But now it’s time to find the solutions. And maybe DM someone today, email someone today, build that network, strengthen that network that you have. So Sandy, thanks so much for an inspirational episode today. Really appreciate you sharing your journey. Because I’ll be very blunt Sandy, right. The podcast was because I love I love this podcast a lot. I’m very passionate about Protrusive and the fun we have and how much I’m learning and how much people learning from the podcast. But let’s not forget that most people that come on a podcast, they have something to share, which is amazing. They can help us in practice and they’re doing it for free, which is amazing. But also, they generate revenue for their courses and stuff in Coming up my course. And that’s cool. And that’s how it grows. And that’s fine. You’ve come on today you have nothing to sell my friend, right? You have nothing to sell me. Okay? You’ve come because you call me and he said, ‘Jaz, you know what I feel this way. And I’ve been through this, and I want to help other dentists can we have a chat?’ And I said, ‘Yes, absolutely!’ So, thank you from the bottom my heart and from the Protruserati for just being at that dentist that represents so many of us today, and to show us your journey and show us your vulnerabilities. And just a thank you.

[Sandy]
My pleasure, to be honest with you, I’m just glad that you give me this platform to be able to share that with you. And I think it’s, you know, I’m at the stage now where I’m confident to say what things haven’t gone right on. You know, I think it’s important. And like I said, my doors always open to anyone who wants to talk, or anyone who wants to share anything or any advice I’m not an expert. But I’ve been through those experiences. I’ve been through those feelings, those emotions, so I think it’s important to reach out definitely, definitely, definitely reach out to anyone that you think that be able to help you and guide you through.

[Jaz]
If someone wants to just give you a virtual hug or high five or an email or a DM what’s the best way for them to contact?

[Sandy]
My email on sandeep.rupra@gmail.com. Or they can holler at me on their Instagram, or Facebook.

[Jaz]
What’s your handle?

[Sandy]
drsandyrupra. Yeah, you can check me out there.

[Jaz]
I will put that in the show notes.

[Sandy]

I think we all had for each other. So, but yeah, I mean, I’m pretty appreciated, Jaz. It’s been really good. Really good.

Jaz’s Outro:

Thank you. It’s been a lot of fun. Thanks so much. We explored a lot of themes and finally now we know what people do during dental public health. And then, there we are. Now, we know. Thank you so much. Well, there we have it guys, this interference cast with Sandy. I hope it’s opened your eyes and your ears and your heart to come up with the next steps. How can you actually gain fulfillment if you’re not already fulfilled in your workplace? Every dentists deserve fulfillment from the workplace. So why don’t take a leaf out of Sandy’s page and figure out, what is your next step? You might not be able to achieve it next month or in a few months, but at least have a plan of change. What is your action plan? What is a massive change you’re going to make in life to head towards where you want to be in your life and in your career? If you found this episode useful, please do consider leaving a review on wherever you’re listening. That could be Spotify Apple, if you’re on the app, head to the community section. Tell me about how you found this episode insightful and we’re always chatting on the community as well as the Telegram group. So, appreciate you guys so much for listening all the way to the end as always. I’ll catch you same time, same place, next week.