Dentist Downunder – PDP005

Jaz’s Introduction: Hello everyone and welcome to episode five of the Protrusive Dental podcast. As promised, this one is about Australia. It’s for dentists who are looking to move to Australia, which for so many years has been such a popular destination or place for dentists to consider going to. Many Dentists have moved there and settled there. While some have actually gone there had a great experience, make great memories and come back to raise their families back in the UK or wherever they are in the world. I’m joined today by my good friend Robert Conville and similarly to the one where I was joined by Surinder Aurora for Expat Dentist in Singapore that was episode number one. This one’s about giving you advice and tips if you’re considering moving to Australia for dentistry, or if you’re already there, how to look out for job opportunities, how it works with other people, spouses, visas, all that sort of stuff. Before I get to that though, today’s Protrusive Dental pearl is a trick to get excellent isolation for class five restorations. Class fives are typically on dentine or root dentin and therefore suffer with less predictable bond strengths to resin composite. Isolations always trickier. I’m a huge fan of using rubber dam for all if not most of my composite were appropriate. But sometimes, if rubber dam isolation actually makes your restorative dentistry more difficult then I’m against using it. So even if you have a class five cavity, and you’re using rubberdam. And even if you use your Brinker B4 clamps to really get maximum retraction, then those who use rubberdam on a daily basis will still know that there’s a degree of seepage that happens around the rubber dam. So what do you do then? Well, the tip I picked up from Pasquale Venuti in Sydney, is to use ptfe tape packed into the sulcus. Now, depending on the biotype you’re dealing with, you can use it rolled up like a retraction cord, or you can use it like a napkin almost and just pack it inside the sulcus. Don’t take my word for it, try it, the cavity will be bone dry and even inspected in a microscope, you’ll find that there’ll be no moisture seepage at all. So I mean, I know there are a myriad of uses of ptfe tape, and that could probably fill a hole shown itself. But this one is one of my favorites. So let’s now join Rob and talk about Australia.

Main Interview:

[Jaz]
And so Rob, just tell us a little about yourself to the listeners, who are you know, where do you qualify? What you’ve been up to?

[Rob]
Yeah, awesome. So my name is Rob. I was in the same university as Jaz. I was the Apollo Jazz at University of Sheffield and I graduated in 2014. So that was a great time. I following that I completed my vocational training in the Wakefield scheme near Leeds. I still lived in Sheffield. And after that, I continued on to my dental school training year maxillofacial surgery in Sheffield. And then that’s when I decided to make the move to Australia. So yeah, I was there for two years. And I’ve just returned in the July 2018. And I’m now back in Sheffield working in the pediatric department.

[Jaz]
So tell us why Australia?

[Rob]
So for me, Australia, I went to Australia, my dental active in the fourth year of university with my friend Tom, and we had a really great time. And we kind of we traveled through Australia, I thought what a great place to live. And I just thought, you know, when I graduated from university, I really wanted to experience working abroad. And so yeah, Australia for me was it was always kind of a plan. And yeah,

[Jaz]
Did you not consider anywhere else?

[Rob]
Yeah, we looked. So I looked at America, and I looked at Canada. And there are a few other places. I know you went to Singapore, yourself, Jaz. But so in some of those areas, you know those places you need to sit exams and Australia seemed like a good place to go, they recognise English qualifications. So yeah, that was my main choice.

[Jaz]
Okay, so you decided want to go to Australia? What are the first steps that you took? And would you do anything differently now compared to what you did then?

[Rob]
Yes. So I think the first point of call was I tried to speak to people who’ve been before. So there’s quite a few. There’s loads of English doctors and dentists who’ve moved over to Australia. So I kind of got in touch with people I knew who had been or still there just to get their feel and what it takes to kind of get the application sorted. So that was kind of in my dental school training year, I was speaking to friends who are working in Perth. And they were like, Yeah, you’ve got to come over. You’ve got them. It was really positive. Everything they were saying. So yeah, it’s looked into the process of visas and it does take quite a long time. It does take a long time.

[Jaz]
So you would apply for the visa while you’re in the UK or how’s it work?

[Rob]
Exactly. So you’ve got a few options really so I, you can be sponsored. So I started Googling like dental companies and there’s companies in Perth like DB dental, and who’ve got strong links with the UK and getting UK graduates can work over there. So I suppose some friends who work there so and then I looked at other corporate dental companies who sponsor UK dentists, and there’s a few routes, you can go about it, you can either do it yourself and you can apply for a job. But

[Jaz]
Is that what you did?

[Rob]
Yeah, so I initially applied for that route.

[Jaz]
So if you’re going to be doing it yourself, tell us your route. And then we can discuss the pros and cons of doing yourself. So tell us how you did it.

[Rob]
So I actually organized I got a like a backpacker visa, which is like a one year kind of visa, which allows you to go work in Australia, however, there’s limits on that visa. So you can only work for six months at a time with one company. And then you’d have to change. So I went on a kind of a one year visa. And I successfully got a job interview with one of the dental corporates who said that I could go and work for them. And they considered sponsoring me,

[Jaz]
But they were in on it, right? They knew that they could only take you on for six months. Right?

[Rob]
Exactly. So they kind of knew that after the six months, then I’d have to either be sponsored by them, or I’d have to kind of change, you know, my employer. So I actually worked out because I was moving over there with my partner who’s a doctor, we managed to join our patients together. So Faye was actually sponsored by her hospital. And then I managed to be sponsored by the hospital also as like a de facto partner. So then I was able to continue to work for my dental company for the two years that we were there. So it’s great.

[Jaz]
Okay, so that’s one way of doing if your partner’s going to get sponsored. What if you’re out there and you’re not fortunate enough to be in a position where you know, you’ve got someone in the medical field who’s gonna get sponsored? Imagine you just work for a company six months, on this backpack a visa, as you say, either the company has to then sponsor you. Or you know, your stuff, right?

[Rob]
Well, yeah. So your options are you either would have to then change to a different company for six months. Or you then could go and travel and do you know, explore the country if you wanted to. And Yeah, you’d have to take a sponsorship with that company, and then they would sponsor you for a time period. And you’d have to honor that with them. And they can offer you you know, certain amounts of time, I know that the standard time was two to four years, that’s generally what they were, they offer people in the contracts, but

[Jaz]
What’s in it for them? And what’s in it for you? If someone sponsored you?

[Rob]
Well, to be honest, the application itself cost quite a lot. So I think for one of the visas that you know, looking at, anywhere between $1,000, up to maybe $3,000 for the visa,

[Jaz]
And this is you paying or your sponsor paying?

[Rob]
So the sponsor would pay for your visa, so you would have no fees for the actual visa itself, because they’d be paying for it. But then you’d be tied in with the contract on a salary. And they’d discuss terms and conditions with you that discuss commission rates, etc. But you’d then be an employee of that company, and they’d have a bit more kind of control over kind of your working hours, etc, etc. So,

[Jaz]
So in this case, you’re not like a normal, self employed associate taking a percentage, or is that element of that in there?

[Rob]
Well, there definitely will be a little element, but you’ll be classed as an employee. So you’ll be given a base salary. And then on top of that, you’ll have your commission which will come in. Whereas if you are self employed dentist, you’re paid primarily on commission just on commission. So there’s no salary aspect to when you’re self employed dentist.

[Jaz]
Okay. And do you have to get a I mean, is sponsorship a mandatory requirement? For foreign grads?

[Rob]
Yeah. So for foreign graduates, if you’ve not got a partner who’s sponsored by different company, and then you can like piggyback on as a de facto, then, yeah, the only way that you can go and work there is by sponsorship. So you do need to take up sponsorship to get the visa to go and work as a dentist so

[Jaz]
And then how long do you need to then stick up with that before you can just be any old Australian dentist who can work anywhere when they want, you know what criteria do to fulfill?

[Rob]
So then most people who come and go over on a sponsorship visa will be given say two to four years on that sponsored visa. After that, then you’d be in discussion talks with your employer to sponsor you to go to apply for permanent residency, that’s generally the route that people take. Now, the visa systems are all changing at the moment. So when I first moved across the sponsored visa was called the 457. Now that was their permanent, that was the sponsored visa for skilled workers. Now in March 2018, so when we were just leaving, they decided to stop that 457 visa and they’ve changed it and now I had to have a read up on this because I myself wasn’t on the new visa, but it’s called the 482. It’s very similar is to say, allows you to work full time with an employer in the nominated position as a dentist, then, you know, they’re generally for short term kind of stays. So generally two years. Now after that two years, they can extend it to four years, I believe, but on the four year visa that’s when it after that rough period runs out, then that’s when you’d have to move towards permanent residency. Now with the way the visa going, I’m not sure the route to permanent residency through this new visa system because I wasn’t on it. So.

[Jaz]
Okay, so really, you know, if you’re going out there as dentists, the ADC, is that what they call the Australian dental study? It’s not really them who are limiting you from working, it’s more the immigration side of things.

[Rob]
Definitely there is that the visa aspects and the immigration aspects. There’s Australian dental council who you don’t have to actually register with. You register with AHPRA, the Australian Health Practices Regulations Authority. Now, they’re the ones who register all the practitioners, so shrub lists, you know, dentists, doctors, all the health care professionals or registered with AHPRA. So you only need your AHPRA registration. And you don’t have to be a member of the ADC. Now, if you stay there longer term, I think there would be a push to for you to go and be a member of the ADC and sit the exams. But no,

[Jaz]
but it’s not a requirement?

[Rob]
It’s not an essential requirements go work there. But you do need AHPRA registration that is the one that you need.

[Jaz]
Okay, and AHPRA registration? Does it cost money? Does it take long? And are there any criteria or exams that you need to fulfill?

[Rob]
Yeah, definitely. So AHPRA registration, it’s a bit like the GDC for us, it’s similar or equivalent, it was off the top of my head, I think it’s between $600-$700. So it’s less than, you know, the GDC fee of 890 pounds. And timewise, again, when you apply for your first time, because you apply before you move to Australia for the AHPRA so that when you get there, you can start working, it does take a long time. So I think I started looking in the march time of 2016, for working in September, and it came through like the month before I got there so it can take

[Jaz]
So five months

[Rob]
Y can take you know, I gave myself six months to be able to everything out because not only your AHPRA registration, you need to do police checks, you need to do health screenings, it needs to have a chest X ray, because you’re going to be working as a dentist, you need to obviously apply for your visa through the immigration system. And then you’ve got to apply for your AHPRA, which is the medical licensing board.

[Jaz]
Okay, and but you don’t need to pass any exams?

[Rob]
There’s no exams or anything like that. So that perfect.

[Jaz]
Yeah. That’s much better. So the first thing you need to do then is register to AHPRA? Or is the first thing to do to find a sponsor? Which of those two do or is the first thing the visa changes to 123? In the order of how you’d actually

[Rob]
So order I would be would be just contact, you know, contact one of the employers over there, whether that be someone who, like a corporate dental company, or go on to the ADA website, the Australian Dental Association, and there’s loads of job advertisements and vacancies there. And I just sent out loads of emails to people saying, you know, I’m English dentist wants to be across, and you probably will, when I first started, I didn’t get much replies at all. Yeah, I sent out loads of emails. But then I did get one. And that was from one of the corporates, and they were like, Oh, this is what you have to do. So yeah, first of all, talk to an employer. Second point would then be the visa application. And then third, and finally would be the AHPRA registration once you’ve got the job kind of secured with the visa. And then with the AHPRA, that’s the route.

[Jaz]
Sure. But you but you need the job. You need the sponsor to then help the visa. Right?

[Rob]
Yes, exactly. So the first point of call is speaking to an employer or potential employer.

[Jaz]
Yeah. Okay, fine. And what are the opportunities like there? Are they hungry for UK dentist at moment? Or is it a bit saturated?

[Rob]
I would say they definitely are, I had a great experience. And I know everyone who is over there, and who are English dentist sound a great time who are still there. But there’s definitely a saturation of dentists in the bigger cities. So I was based in Brisbane, and a great place if anyone’s interested to go and visit Australia. But then there’s a lot of dentists there in the cities and the rural areas is less kind of dentists. So there’s probably more a higher need for a dentist there, however, and jobs are competitive wherever you go. But you’ve just kind of got to go and just, you know, make sure you see these up to scratch. And, I find it quite difficult to get a job. But at the same time, it’s easy when you’re there. You know, when you’re working on Skype and emails, it’s quite hard to meet potential employers, it’s difficult, but you’ve got to just persevere with it. And I’d say it’s definitely worth it.

[Jaz]
Brilliant. So once you’ve got your job lined up by someone agreed to sponsor you, then they help you with the visa and the AHPRA and everything takes about five to six months. You start working as a dentist in Australia. What’s it like there? How is it different to what you experienced in the UK?

[Rob]
Yeah, so it’s all private in Australia. So coming from my VT kind of experience in like a mix NHS private party. Yes, it was very different, the way they pay for the treatment. So quite a few patients will be on like a health funds or have some sort of health insurance, which covers them for a range of dental treatments. And they kind of have, they have rebates on treatment. So, safety doing a checkup, and they’re on a Health Fund. And the Health Fund will cover the checkup, they don’t have to pay anything out of pocket. But then you have people who don’t have any sort of insurance at all, who then just have to pay for the treatment, like a fee per item sort of thing.

[Jaz]
Okay, is insurance something that you take out as a policy? Or is insurance something that people get if their income is below a certain level? How does that work?

[Rob]
Yeah, so generally, people take it as policies as this, there’s booper, there’s medibank, private, there’s an Australian Defence Force, there’s loads of different sorts of insurances. So they generally take ours yearly policies, and the dental will be one aspect of that wider Health Cover. So as a dental practitioner over there, depending of who you work for, you’ll be kind of a preferred, what we call a preferred provider for one of the health funds, or if you like, so in one of my clinics where I worked, we kind of covered the majority of health funds. So that meant, we’re, you know, most patients who had a health and could come and see us for treatment, and they get the maximum benefit. Whereas if you weren’t a preferred provider for that health, and then the patient might not get the maximum benefit back. Does that make sense?

[Jaz]
Yeah, I’m with you. So is it some clinics may not be able to accept all the different policies out there?

[Rob]
Yeah. But obviously, they can still provide the dentistry but you know, the patient would want to get the most back for their health Insurance. So yeah, it was excellent. And so you know, it’s private practice where I worked. I worked for a corporate and for a family practice as well, I was working. Towards the end, I was working 6 days a week, every four nights. So I was really busy. I wanted to get the best experience over there as possible. And yeah, just a really, really fresh kind of Outlook to Dentistry of that actually

[Jaz]
Good. And how many patients were you seeing roughly? Is it bit like, you know, was it overly busy? Or was a bit quiet?

[Rob]
Well, it kind of all depends on you as a person. And generally, I didn’t see more than 20 patients in a day. And that was kind of, you know, that’s just the way it went, it depends how busy the clinic is, obviously, and where you’re based. But yeah, you can kind of choose how long you want for your patients. And obviously, because you know, patients are, you know, you I want to spend as much time with the patient as possible, and I wanted to deliver the best care, and I want to do my best. So I booked out longer appointments that if I felt it was needed. So yeah, it wasn’t a stressful environment at all.

[Jaz]
Cool. And, you know, the most common question people get out there is how much could you expect to earn? And you could probably answer that in a couple of ways you can answer that, from someone who may be on a sort of sponsored contract, and what the average GDP in Australia could be looking to earn. Can you give us an average figures?

[Rob]
Yeah, so I think on the salary side, when you’re, if you’re say employed there, you know, they say a yearly salary would be roughly around $85,000, which is really, really good at the exchange rate, I’m not sure what that is at the moment. But then obviously, on top of that, you can add your commission so and

[Jaz]
That’s pretty much guaranteed that

[Rob]
That’s like a base salary. And then on top of it, you know, you can add to commission, depending on how many patients you see or treat in a month. So that gives you an idea of roughly, like an average,

[Jaz]
Have you gone average for, you know, permanent resident Australian dentists who are not on a sort of contract? Or is that something you’re not sure about?

[Rob]
Yeah, yeah. So I think I think you could range really, you know, if you’re working in a busy clinic, you know, five, six days a week, you could be looking at, you know, $150,000+ if you know, for an experienced data processor with a stable list, and you’re well established there, but, you know, y’all know Jaz, you move to Singapore, once you arrive, you know, you have to build patient, you know, build a list, build rapport with patients, and it does take time as it does here.

[Jaz]
Yeah, I mean, in Singapore, as I talked about, the first episode was, you know, it depends a lot about demographics, where you are practicing as well. And these are things that apply anywhere in the world, I suppose.

[Rob]
Yeah, you’re definitely and I found, I worked in the city of Brisbane, I also worked in like a rural kind of suburb of Brisbane. And there are obviously differences there. But you know, I think the experience, you know, you go for the experience, and it was a for anyone interested in moving to Australia, I can’t recommend it enough.

[Jaz]
And I mean, obviously, you’ve back it, but for those who are wishing to, you know, become a PR, do you know how long it would take for them to become a permanent resident?

[Rob]
Yeah. So you have to be there for at least two years. So you have to work there for at least two years, even to be considered for permanent residency. So if you were looking to go towards, move towards permanent residency, you’ve got to commit to at least working there for two years before even applying. So Yeah, that’s where you want to bear in mind.

[Jaz]
Fine. So once you’ve got your PR you can, you’re not really reliant on sponsorship anymore. You can really work in any city that’s or any practice that’s willing to take you on.

[Rob]
Exactly, yeah, you’re free, you’re free to go wherever you want. You’ll be self employed and test, you know, and after PR, that’s when people sometimes go apply for citizenship, which is, you know, you can probably a citizen of Australia. So yeah, there’s options afterwards as well. So,

[Jaz]
But you know, you wouldn’t start supporting Australian rugby or something stupid. That wasn’t you.

[Rob]
Yeah. True England fan of heart, Jaz. You know, me.

[Jaz]
I know. That was just a cruel test. Do you have any tips that you can give to people who are in your position? You know, thinking of taking the big step and moving, crossing a long, it’s a long way to go Australia? I suppose, you know, how can you help them get leverage out there?

[Rob]
Yeah, I think it’s really difficult. Because when I moved over there, I didn’t know anyone really, in Brisbane, didn’t really know the city very well, on my elective, we were only there for two days. So it was a massive kind of culture shock. And also, you’re away from family and friends. But you know, when you put yourself into these kind of uncharted waters, and you, kind of, it’s exciting, and it’s like an adventure. And to be honest, I wouldn’t change anything. It was the best decision I made. Hands down, you know, oh, you know, I had a great experience working maxfacts and everything, but going to Australia was the best move, you know, opens doors for you, because I was amazed to learn, you know, new things like digital dentistry, we’re seeing the was working, there was CEREC, there was TRIOS. We had intraoral scanners, we had our intraoral cameras, you know, on the units, it was just so well, you’re well supported over there. And it was well funded. So the equipment was excellent, you know, using sectional matrices, and just a really good experience. So for a newly qualified dentist, I would highly recommended and you know, this is such a big place. So there’s so many different you know, I know, I’ve got friends who work.

[Jaz]
I mean, I remember seeing all your photos travelling around Australia.

[Rob]
And that says, well, it’s not just work. You know, it’s the whole aspect of living overseas, being able to travel. You know, we’re, if you’re in Australia, you can go towards New Zealand, we went over there, and you can work there as well. I didn’t I never worked there. So you’d have to speak to someone else. But it’s an excellent place to visit. And just a really nice lifestyle, it’s very out if you like the outdoors, it’s a great place for you.

[Jaz]
Absolutely. And could you see yourself, you know, it could have gone a different way. And you could have become a PR there and live there forever. Is it, Could you have seen yourself do that?

[Rob]
Yeah, definitely. I think you know, and you probably speak to many people who who have been there for many, many years, they’ve moved over from the UK. And they’ve stayed there and settled with their families, and they’re having fantastic lives. And for me, personally, we’ve got like a really close family here. And even for us, if it’s the right time to be back. But I’ll never rule out me going back over there again. It was, we’ve made some excellent friends over there. And yeah, it could have gone one of two ways, but back and happy in Sheffield now in God’s country in Yorkshire. So

[Jaz]
that’s been really efficient and really useful. I think that’s going to help a lot of people who are thinking of moving out to Australia with their BDS. And I think you’ve given a good nicer insight into what to expect in dentistry, working conditions. Is there anything else you’d like to add at all?

[Rob]
Yeah, I was gonna say I when I first moved over the to Australia, I did write a small article in the dentistry.co.uk, it was in November 2017. And that’s kind of got the little points that we’ve kind of been through. So if anyone’s kind of, you know, wants to have a look at, you know,

[Jaz]
Send me the link, I’ll put it in the show notes. So yeah, we’ll click on the bottom, and then they’ll be able to see that’d be really useful, actually.

[Rob]
Definitely. And then yeah, thanks very much for your time. It’s been really, really good fun.

[Jaz]
Oh, thank you, Rob. It’s always a pleasure catching up with you. And I’m sure I’ll see you very soon, mate.

[Rob]
See you soon thanks, Jaz.

Jaz’s Outro: Well, I hope Rob’s experiences and know how has helped you in some way. He’s a very helpful person and one of the nicest guys around in dentistry. So do reach out to him if you need any further information or help. He’s very supportive. Please stay tuned for the next episode, which is going to be absolutely huge. Can be the biggest one I’ve done yet. It’s got several people speaking on it, giving different perspectives, answering such a big question, that question that crosses everyone’s mind at some stage whether the beginning of the career or even the middle of the career is Should I Specialize? Should I pursue extra degrees? Should I do an MClindent in a certain subject. So we speak someone who is doing prostho, someone who’s done the conservative MSC at Eastman, people who do are doing orthodontic diplomas. I’ve got loads of people in the show giving different perspectives, GDPs as well. Team GDP. We’ll be talking about the pros and cons, financial aspects, anecdotes specialization. So it’s actually a really big one. I hope it’s gonna be really helpful to people early in their career or in the middle of career considering whether it’s worth specializing. So again, if you liked this episode, please do share it. Like the Protusive Dental podcast page on Facebook and register on www.jaz.dental if you want email notifications of new episodes and free content, which I’ll be putting out. Peace out.