Clubhouse for Dentists – Fad or Future? – IC011

Jaz’s Introduction: 
You were thinking what the hell’s clubhouse, don’t worry we’ll cover what clubhouse is but before you continue it’s basically a new app it’s like a new form of social media where you’re just listening and you’re speaking there’s no video involved so imagine like the way I described in this episode is it’s like a WhatsApp group except everyone’s constantly like talking and interacting in that way rather than by video so that’s what clubhouse is.

Is there a place for dentistry in clubhouse? I think there is and hopefully you’ll be able to see that there is a role that all dentists can have in clubhouse. So if you are already on clubhouse join the room, the clinical dentistry and communication room. I’m calling it teach preach and leech and I nicked it from a group I am part of in Singapore and this is going to be a room to just discuss clinical dentistry, your clinical issues I think in the next episode we’re discussing composite veneers versus ceramic veneers, the do’s and don’ts.

The sort of things on case selection for each of those and why one may be superior than the other that kind of stuff so it’s like a live podcast if you like. So join me on Wednesday evenings at 8 p.m. I’ll put the link on protrusive.co.uk and every time I go on clubhouse at the moment I’m putting on the Protrusive dental community Facebook group. Joining me in this episode is Kevin Rose, I’ll let him introduce himself in the episode so I hope you enjoy and brings you value about clubhouse in dentistry.

Main Episode:
Kevin Rose, welcome to the podcast how are you?

[Kevin]
Very, very, well indeed thank you good morning. How are you?

[Jaz]
Very good, thank you. It’s my son’s first day at nursery today so I am actually super anxious, excited like he’s had like these little settling sessions but today’s like first whack so yeah I’m kind of scared.

[Kevin]
How old is that these days? When they go to nursery is it four, three?

[Jaz]
It depends. He’s 19 months so it really depends like some kids I know been you know in nursery since who are six months old or young so he’s 19 months and we thought this is the best time now for him to start picking learning a few extra things plus we’re moving out soon so at the moment I don’t know if you know, Kevin I live with my parents so since I came back from Singapore 2017, been living my parents. Finally fleeing the nest because it’s just the way it worked out. It’s somewhere closer to work so a can cut out the commute and then so this is a big chapter coming up in my life.

[Kevin]
So you need to delegate parenting for a few hours a day definitely that makes a lot of sense now yeah I get it mine are much older.

[Jaz]
How old are yours?

[Kevin]
Oh crikey 21, 23 and 18 nearly yes there you go.

[Jaz]
Well the first thing for some reason the first thing I want to ask Kevin about your, of course you can’t really call them children but your offspring is are they on clubhouse?

[Kevin]
They’re not. I don’t think so but then there’s been a bit of a social media blackout between myself and my children for many years. I think it’s just mutual respect we don’t touch on each other’s social media worlds. So I don’t know, we do Strava actually quite a bit with my kids I was interested yesterday my one of my daughters actually strava mowing the lawn which I thought was quite impressive actually that’s keen isn’t it? That’s keen to get the miles in but no I don’t know and clubhouse for me is literally this is day 15 and I find it fascinating for no doubt reasons we will discuss. So what about you?

[Jaz]
Absolutely I’m on day 10 of clubhouse and to fair I was I got my invite like ages ago but thing is I’m on android so then I was just thinking okay I need to get on clubhouse, it would complement the podcast like a live version really well and it sounded really intriguing and then I said to my dad ‘Dad I think I’m thinking I’m getting like a second-hand iPad, iPhone.’ He’s like, ‘Son what are you doing we have 5, 15 iPhone in the cupboard!’ So I open the cupboard and literally I’ve got like so many old iPhone and the newest one was an iPhone 7 which blew my mind.

[Kevin]
Wow.

[Jaz]
I know right? What is your one sentence pitch? What do you do for dentists?

[Kevin]
I get them to think I get dentists and that’s it I really do and I believe that that experience within and outside of dentistry, yes okay I can at 12 years I could probably talk, I could probably talk my way around the dental surgery right? I kind of get the lingo and I get bp lingos and I get I know what a flat plastic is now by the way. Who knew right? I was like made of plastic turns out it isn’t but yeah so I get that bit which means you can hold a conversation and I’ve got all of the stuff if you like, the things you would expect from a coach or a consultant or a trainer to bring with them into any business. What I really believe, Jaz is that the difference between those that defined success is probably another conversation but I really believe that the difference between those that really succeed and don’t is actually it’s a small percentage of difference and that difference I think comes down to the conversations that you have with yourself as a business owner, that internal dialogue and the conversations that you have with others and in a dental practice those conversations are with patients and members of your team and if you think about it the day-to-day challenges of running a business tend to be more about people and customers that’s where the difference is. So I think yeah, what do I do? I get dentists to think why is that really important because that’s the extra 20% is the difference between a good day and a bad day and I do that because I ask lots of questions and I’m curious and I give a damn that’s my philosophy on it.

[Jaz]
Brilliant. Well we’re going to talk today about clubhouse so for those listening right now I mean I’ve done it already where we’ve been on the big dental groups and I said hey you know we’re hosting a clubhouse room and you know what the number one question is right when we say ‘hey join our clubhouse room’, can you guess Kevin? What’s the number one question that dentists ask about clubhouse?

[Kevin]
Oh let me guess is it how to use it to attract patients by any chance?

[Jaz]
No it’s very much more fundamental than that, it’s what the hell’s clubhouse right? So literally we’ve been absorbed into this because I’m really addicted to it now and I’m sure you’ve been in loads of rooms and getting a lot of value and stuff and then there’s a good and the bad and we’re going to get to that in a moment but most people are still that phase because we’re pretty much early adopters because it’s in my early. 60% of the world uses android and it’s on iOS at the moment I think only about 6-7% in the world use iOS in the first place. So it’s a small offering at the moment, it’s a small community, it’s an interesting community but essentially for those listening you don’t know what clubhouse is imagine a radio show on your phone on demand but with your mates. It’s like a WhatsApp group but you talk except you’re not typing but except on this WhatsApp group you got like you know the most successful billionaires in the world potentially sat in this WhatsApp group of yours. What’s your take on clubhouse? How do you explain what clubhouse is to someone?

[Kevin]
Well I’m going to steal your definition there actually because I struggle to explain it and I’m a bit of a, I am an ambassador for it. I keep bragging on about it to people. I mean my take on clubhouse is that number one actually, it’s not obvious. It’s not obvious how it works or what to do with it. The first time I was asked to speak, it caught me off guard and I didn’t even have the microphone settings, the privacy settings on my phone correct. So I went I was pressing all the buttons trying to unmute myself and inevitably with clubhouse probably doing something else at the same time and I guess that’s also the beauty of it. I think I was it was quite early on I was having a cup of tea or something making breakfast and there are some I was asked to speak on clubhouse. In terms of where we go with it and what opportunities it provides I want to put that into context because my job is to get us thinking right and I say that’s what I do I ask the big questions that perhaps other people don’t think or scared or don’t want to face up to and the bigger question it’s always been my thing for 12 years now is how the hell, how the heck don’t we get more, can we get more people to go to the dentist? Why doesn’t everybody go to the dentist? And you know where I’m going with this there is something, some hang-ups people have about dentists and dentistry and yet everyone that goes to dentists raves about their dentist they talk about their own dentist and their dentist is special and yet you get these massive percentages of the population and these numbers are replicated globally I’ve got clients in other parts of the world there’s big sways of the population who just don’t get it and that’s not all to do with NHS and affordability there is I think a bit of antipathy towards the profession and by the public and they’re misunderstood and they assume that every all the phrases ‘I’ve never met a poor dentist.’ Well I’ve met some dancers that are struggling right now but you won’t get that much, you probably won’t get that much sympathy from the public if you were to go and say that.

So that’s the issue that I think we’re struggling to fight with as a profession and I think it’s more of a PR issue than a marketing issue in many ways and I mentioned that because that’s how I think we use clubhouse to our best advantage.

[Jaz]
I’ve been using clubhouse in a completely different way I come from very much as an extension of my podcast how can I serve the community of dentists because so far you’re right, Kevin I go on clubhouse and the majority of the room so they call rooms in clubhouse where you join in and there’s people on the stage just call the stage with people at the top and they’re like hosting and moderating and then I’m just explaining for those who don’t know what it is you raise your hand virtually and then you call up to the stage if you get your turn you can put your contribution in and so the kind of themes I’m coming up with is helping dentists which is the main one I’m getting involved with clinical stuff which is not happening that much moment but I’m hoping to change that but it’s more about marketing, how to get Invisalign number one. How to attract more patients? How to use social media in Dentistry? Those are the kind of rooms I’m seeing, how to acquire your practice and that kind of stuff. So everything that you see on all the other extensions social media we’re seeing it turn up on clubhouse. Now what I love about clubhouse is you vote with your ears right? If because I’ve been to a few rooms now, Kevin and all I’m seeing is one host or moderator is just completely just, ah this moderate is awesome follow them this is amazing and everyone’s just sort of digging each other up but no one’s actually giving any value. So you vote with your ears you just leave if you don’t want to be in that, you just leave. So that’s why I’m enjoying the most about clubhouse.

[Kevin]
Yeah and that’s you’ve I think there’s a meeting of mines it’s yes because that’s my I’m going to say concern with a very small c it’s not a problem, it’s not that it’s wrong. I think at the moment almost inevitably with this being a new technology and you’re right those rooms largely seem to be about how to get more as if we’re chasing something and that’s fine.

[Jaz]
I mean that’s our place, it’s got a place and people want to learn that and that’s got a place that seems to be the majority at the moment.

[Kevin]
Yeah absolutely and of course you have to have that in business okay and that’s part of what I do you know part of what I do is help people get busier practices. No one’s trying to go backwards generally in life or business and I support that. The trick I think we’re possibly missing is if all we use clubhouse for is just another platform to say exactly the same things in a slightly different way then I think it would be A) it’s a shame because I think we’re missing an opportunity. Going back to my point about the PR problem of dentistry. So yeah if you are a member of the public and let’s just take the obvious one at the moment and you’re looking for some kind of removable clear aligner teeth straightening system there’s plenty of choice out there. And there’s plenty of dentists on clubhouse talking how to give patients choice and to be their choice, there’s a lot of that going on that’s what you’re alluding to and that’s great if you’re already in the market as a member of the public for have for looking for that but what about the millions, millions what are we now 60 million people in a small island most of whom are born with the teeth in their mouths that they’re going to have for the rest of their lives and what half of them regularly attend the dentist there’s enough out there, Jaz right? There’s enough people out there for us all. What I think we’re missing is this hump that people have to get over to at least to even pick up the phone to a dental practice so this is where I think clubhouse has its biggest opportunity. Now I wrote a blog about this last week when I google.. and it’s not my greatest work because I think I’m still finding my feet with this myself but when I googled clubhouse last Wednesday or Thursday I got to the end of the internet right? I finished the internet. There were only 22 pages 22 pages about clubhouse now there’s a caveat there google then said we’ve removed certain things to avoid duplication right but in essence what I’m saying is its new.

Now if you can’t google the answers to something heaven forbid what have we got to do, Jaz we’ve got to start talking to each other. We’ve got to start asking questions, we’ve got to start thinking, we’re going to start doing our own research and I think that’s to me it just got me really thinking hang on a minute if clubhouse is that new that we run out of internet at the moment in terms of what to do with it then it’s finding its own feet the internet is not giving us the answers to what we do with clubhouse okay? We’ve had to work it out for ourselves and that’s what we’re doing that’s what this conversation’s about but that then got me thinking well what if you’re a member of the public who isn’t getting the answers you want from the internet as well okay? So there are questions that you would want to ask as a patient which I don’t think you’re going to get the answer to until you look somebody in the eye and to express their feelings, their emotions the internet doesn’t really serve the limbic system well the inner chimp, the fight or flight it doesn’t it delivers facts. It delivers facts in a bit of opinion and opinion it’s harder for the internet to connect emotionally and yet if you think about it you know if you businesses crave to have what we have which is the ability to emotionally connect with other human beings you guys do it all day long you know big companies try and do it with cars and with cans of fizzy drinks and with inanimate objects to get that emotional connection and yet you guys have got that emotional connection so I’m bringing bring this right back into clubhouse in a second I promise you.

So here we have I think, if you want to attract more people into your dental practice and most people would say that they do okay? And by the way when you say attract I’m talking about attracting and retaining loyal and motivated patients and it not just to be about the numbers to be a there to be a quantity but also a qualitative outcome the things that we really need to measure and it gets hard because it gets subjective okay but I mean I was thinking about this the other day I mean what I would measure if I was a dental practice and I was also doing clear aligners I’d also be measuring how many of my customers bring those aligners back for recycling that’s just as important and yet it’s not the obvious thing so we have an opportunity here to use, to think about the where the internet lets us down as a member of the public because it doesn’t answer the real personal questions that you have to pick up the phone for, you have to get on a messenger for and guess what in the last 12 months you actually can occasionally speak to a dentist on a video at home on an evening and of course it’s absolutely transformed how we interact with people with patients because they do get to look you in the eye that’s why video consoles are so successful. So there you have it what where do we go with this well the internet isn’t the answer, the internet isn’t the answer to all of this. Engaging with people eye to eye if you like it is the answer. We’ve proved it with video consoles and I think even though clubhouse is just an audio format that’s where I think there’s still a massive opportunity which is yet as yet untapped from what i’ve seen yes we can talk about using it to attract patients who are probably already in the business of looking for a dentist I get that but what about those that aren’t? That those that don’t get it yet? So we can use clubhouse I think to and again this is a working title but to bring people almost behind the scenes you know how when businesses have a bit of a PR issue they take the cameras, they bring the reporters behind the scenes and they show them what and all and actually and it’s not all pretty but it does change people’s perceptions I didn’t realize it was like that if you look at over the years businesses that have used that easyjet for example who’d have thought that people shouting at the check-in desk at easyjet would actually build the brand and yet that’s what you had. We’ve seen it with restaurants and right now and again a bit of google research there’s only 22 pages to look at I know them all the company that owns burger king and it’s a big restaurant chain i’ve never heard of actually. They’ve got clubhouse, they’ve got something called open kitchen. So what they’re doing is as a member of the public you can actually go behind the scenes and talk to the chef of a restaurant chain, who in turn owns burger king or the chefs. So you can actually so what can you see, where we’re going with this is that going to sell more burgers tomorrow because of that directly? Well you’ve got to forget that you’ve got to be detached from that you’ve got to look at that bigger picture. So I could be cynical and say it’s junk food, it’s pollution, it’s packaging, it’s making kids fat and all the rest of it but you’ve got to admire being brave enough to bring the public and bring them so they can see something from the inside out.

Now that’s a very long answer to how do you use clubhouse well you use it in exactly the same way. So you use clubhouse to bring skeptical people okay not just the fans not just the ones with the aligners and the white teeth and the veneers okay? Skeptical people who are on that scale of complete fear and anxiety through to just having read a tabloid newspaper once okay and everything in between. Bring skeptical people to see what it’s really like. Okay I mean look you know this conversation now okay but don’t pay the patients don’t know that dentists are bending over backwards to try and help the public. Patients think it’s hard to get a dentist and yes I know it’s hard at the moment relatively because of covid all the rest of it but all these myths and memes and prejudices that the public have let’s debunk them but you won’t debunk them by just saying ‘I’m a dentist. Here’s my opening hours. Here’s a special offer we do straightening, whitening, implants and all the rest of it. That’s what you do okay and I’m trying to avoid stealing Simon Sinek’s quote but it’s almost inevitable you have to anyway yeah people don’t buy that they buy why you do it so what’s that why and what a better way to communicate something that can be quite ineffable because it’s a feeling than a conversation to really get that passion across.

[Jaz]
Kevin, I’m just going to object because I’m going to sort of debate with you a little bit all in good nature. So firstly I was listening very carefully there’s a few points you said. Firstly I love the whole burger thing okay is the fact that they got the open kitchen on clubhouse. Is that going to sell more burgers tomorrow? Who cares. That’s not what it’s about okay so I love that firstly okay? So from that I can extrapolate that as dentists we can serve our patients not just our direct patients but humans. Let’s serve humans, let’s improve their perceptions of dentistry because we can do wonders with that so that’s I definitely agree we can do that and I think we should because I think it’s very altruistic because when i’ve hosted a room about clinical dentistry, once you geek out with other dentists you know how sad am. I there was someone from Harvard, there was someone from UAE, there’s some from Spain, all dentists were just learning each other pitching different scenarios. Love that.

Now here is the skeptic who wants to attract more patients to our practice maybe clubhouse is not the best place for them because when they host a room all about how to overcome your dental fears ,well you’ll have a patient from San Diego you’ll have a patient from Nice, you’ll have a patient from Shanghai I don’t know I’m making these up right? Maybe one person, one patient is 30 miles away from that may come see you. So maybe it’s not the best reason to attract patients your practice at the moment with the small scale it is maybe in the future it could be used in that way to sort of help people overcome their fear and then eventually come to your practice but at the moment it’s not about that. At the moment it’s about raising the profile of dentists, helping the humans the greater good of dentistry so I think that’s where I’m seeing it go at the moment.

So that’s my only objection because you said about emotional connection I think you can get that emotional connection through YouTube like so many dentists I know have made wonderful YouTube videos where look at the camera in the eye and say you know what my practice is in Reading, here’s where I work, here’s how. Here’s what we do, this is what we’re about. Where do you see the role of that versus clubhouse and how can clubhouse compete with that?

[Kevin]
Well it’s an audio format only so but YouTube tends to be static doesn’t it? I know billions of things get uploaded every day but it’s not quite, it’s not a dialogue. It’s a recording I guess? That’s the fundamental difference. and you’re right going back to those things I was expecting you to like beat me up then as when you said I want to challenge you and I’m happy to be challenged on this there’s nothing to challenge. It’s just an idea about something that hasn’t yet been done. So is there a right or wrong? Is it limited? Yeah if you’re hoping to go on clubhouse and fill tomorrow’s white space forget it. Absolutely, forget it you know or catch up on some UDAs that’s not what it’s about and if you’re looking to you know do more dentistry tomorrow because of it no way, you’re kind of missing the point there’s a principle which I’ve always believed in and in the end it cost me a career I left a profession because of this. To be detached from if you like the outcome the end result whatever you want to call it that’s a good thing in life and certainly in business because people will see through it otherwise and I do believe it’s actually effectively GDC 1.1 right? So not of a vested interest.

So it’s a good thing from a regulatory point of view so it was always a good thing. So go on clubhouse to sell some dentistry, no bring a patient in your surgery to sell some dentistry and make some money good luck with that. In the short term fine maybe you’ll get away with it but if you want to change perceptions and it is a bit ultra I mean I’m an idealist right? I get that and I just think that I don’t know if this is a phrase or not whether I’ve made this up but something about you know all the boats sail into the harbor better on a rising tide I don’t know I’ve heard that somewhere but you get the gist of that we, if we all and that’s the other thing about clubs by the way I think it’s got a huge collaborative even this conversation came from a half past seven in the morning, clubhouse message or something when you’ve got so many millions of people who are missing out on basic dental care but for the lack yet of having a good conversation with a front-line dental health care provider well if we’re all having better conversations we all benefit if everybody’s having better conversations with the public generally then everybody more people go to the dentist so why make it a one-man crusade to get more patients in within your immediate postcode don’t see it like that.

[Jaz]
Brilliant and because I just want to clarify that those thinking they’re going to jump on clubhouse and get those patients and you’ve nailed it there so.

[Kevin]
Please don’t try and do that get off clubhouse if that’s what you’re trying to do because it’s not going to work, it’s not going to work. It’ll ruin it. It’s not Facebook, let’s not spoil it.

[Jaz]
Exactly and I know you’ve got a meeting so I’m going to wrap it up by say to summarize a and advocate what Kevin said there. Have conversations have better conversations and have or create emotional connections and you can do that through many mediums. Clubhouse just offers you another way where you can be doing anything you’ve been washing the dishes you can be doing any anything you can imagine but there’s no video involved so there’s a beauty of clubhouse which I’m really enjoying as well it’s on the go you can learn a lot, you can just be a fly in the room because sometimes you say hey I wish I was a fly and on the wall when these billionaires are having conversations and those rooms exist and they’re fantastic all right so I know you got to go but is there anything you want to wrap up with my friend? And thanks so much for coming on.

[Kevin]
Well thank you i’ve enjoyed it and it was all a bit on the hoof. We didn’t talk or prepare for this it was just let’s just talk about clubhouse those are my thoughts and you’re right that fly on the wall thing there. It is that’s a bit like what clubhouse is you’ve got a chance to change the perception of going to the dentist in a conversational way and that’s what clubhouse I think it’s one of the biggest opportunities and to sign this off the internet isn’t personal okay? It’s a library of things and like any like a real tangible library you’re not allowed to talk, you’re not allowed to interact right? I mean I’m old enough to remember libraries I used to go there to go and tell it to go to get books out after school and look at teletexts like it was the internet of the day right I mean rubbish by comparison but you weren’t, you’re not the whole point of the library it’s almost a a stereotype situation just take it all in, it’s one way. So the internet is just an online library. So who do you talk to directly when you’re searching for stuff on your computer you can’t and what are we missing what are we missing more of in dentistry? Conversations with people not just those that have already bought the idea of going to the dentist those that might just need a bit more encouragement and reassurance so I think any platform that allows us to talk directly with our customers or patients in this case and including from this perspective of I would say just recall it from the inside out wow that that’s how you change people’s attitudes and perceptions towards something and that’s a wonderful opportunity so that wasn’t a very brief answer I can’t give you brief answers on this stuff because-

[Jaz]
We’ve stuffed that one out Kevin but we enjoy your rambling that’s fine thanks so much I know you got a meeting to go to as well I’ll be taking my credit tonight soon. So thank you so much and yeah I’ll put this up very soon because this is very current so I’m not going to delay on this one we’ll get out very soon buddy.

[Kevin]
I’ll see you on clubhouse no doubt okay.

Jaz’s Outro:
See you clubhouse. Bye Kevin.